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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2013 11:23:08 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2013 11:54:08 GMT
1973 Stock in T5 South Siding TRT in Northfields Depot 1973 Stock in South Harrow Sidings
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Post by railtechnician on Mar 19, 2013 20:38:11 GMT
AF,
I like the images, all from my former maintenance area except T5 which opened shortly after I retired. I used to spend lots of time at Down Street IMR accessing it from the street, from the cab of an eastbound train or from HPC platforms. 30 years ago we'd routinely walk off the platform at HPC and use the siding to walk to Down Street during traffic hours as we did at other locations to reach places such as Leicester Square snake pit, following a train into the tunnel. Going to York Road was always dodgy as that was a drop from an eastbound train cab and in those days the emergency staircase was condemned so the only way out again was to flag a westbound down to get back to Kings Cross if the York road autophone was out of order as it sometimes was!
South Harrow was a nice place to do maintenance except in the winter when it was bitterly cold even in the IMR. When the sidings were jam packed with 83 stock people were kipping in the cars and that could be eerie, even employing an on site security guard for a while didn't guarantee to keep them out. Mind you he seemed to spend most of his shift in his hut.
Happy memories.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2013 14:19:05 GMT
Glad you like the images. May I ask what Leicester Square snake pit is?
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Post by railtechnician on Mar 21, 2013 3:51:03 GMT
Glad you like the images. May I ask what Leicester Square snake pit is? Yes of course. the snake pit is the bottom of the disused lift shaft that used to house the electromechanical Strowger telephone exchange before the telephone system was upgraded in the early 1980s. The pit is where the old main telephone cables from the Piccadilly and Northern lines were terminated in an array of "cow's udder" link boxes and cross connected to the tail cables which went to the Main Distribution Frame (MDF) on the apparatus floor above. When we were routing new telephone lines on day shift we sometimes had to dive into the pit and rewire the connections or make new connections to the old cables which also served the Bakerloo and District lines via the Northern line tunnels to the cable shaft and disused subways at Embankment (Pages Walk and the disused substation area below the District line eastbound). We didn't have to do that for newer cables which were plastic and terminated directly on the MDF in the exchange. There were several places on the railway where we needed to access things via the running tunnels during traffic hours, Clapham Common was another where the station MDF was trackside off the platform just at the tunnel tailwall. Liverpool Street Central and Baker Street spring immediately to mind although there were other routes too at those sites. Of course that was in the 1970s and 1980s before H&S kicked in and stopped us doing things like running cable over the cable bridge across all the tracks at Golders Green tunnel mouth in the day time etc. People in the job these days mostly have no clue how it used to be all those years ago when almost everything on the railway was done by in house departments and there were very few contractors around.
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Post by Nortube on Mar 21, 2013 9:36:35 GMT
Was the place at Clapham Common the old siding (little door) which used to be there before the platform tunnel was lengthened / widened?
I've never seen the point of LU and other companies using contractors, unless it's done as a way of getting cheap labour (by the contractors paying their staff less). All the experience is lost and whilst contractors' staff might be experienced, it's not the same thing as experienced staff who know everything inside out. Also there's none of the different departments fighting each other in the way it is now. If department A wanted something from department B it was usually done informally, probably instantly, and at no cost. Now it's paperwork, money and delay.
The in thing now seems to be for companies (including LU / TfL) to split their companies into separate component parts then each part charges the other for doing something. Some companies seem to do it just as an excuse to make more money out of their customers. BT have done this. Openreach, although BT apparently treats as if it was a separate entity. BT customers now have to pay extra for certain things "because Openreach charge us", yet the money ends up with BT. Billing is another thing. BT (I'm certain) and other companies often call their billing department by a different name and, although it still comes under the umbrella of that company, use that as an excuse for either charging fees they never charged before, or charging exhorbitant fees for something that used to be pennies. One of these being the great "if you don't pay by direct debit, it will be £xxx" and then, when most people were paying by DD, the "we'll charge you £xxx if want a bill" rip-offs.
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Post by railtechnician on Mar 21, 2013 11:54:01 GMT
Was the place at Clapham Common the old siding (little door) which used to be there before the platform tunnel was lengthened / widened? I've never seen the point of LU and other companies using contractors, unless it's done as a way of getting cheap labour (by the contractors paying their staff less). All the experience is lost and whilst contractors' staff might be experienced, it's not the same thing as experienced staff who know everything inside out. Also there's none of the different departments fighting each other in the way it is now. If department A wanted something from department B it was usually done informally, probably instantly, and at no cost. Now it's paperwork, money and delay. The in thing now seems to be for companies (including LU / TfL) to split their companies into separate component parts then each part charges the other for doing something. Some companies seem to do it just as an excuse to make more money out of their customers. BT have done this. Openreach, although BT apparently treats as if it was a separate entity. BT customers now have to pay extra for certain things "because Openreach charge us", yet the money ends up with BT. Billing is another thing. BT (I'm certain) and other companies often call their billing department by a different name and, although it still comes under the umbrella of that company, use that as an excuse for either charging fees they never charged before, or charging exhorbitant fees for something that used to be pennies. One of these being the great "if you don't pay by direct debit, it will be £xxx" and then, when most people were paying by DD, the "we'll charge you £xxx if want a bill" rip-offs. I can't recall a siding at Clapham Common or the platform being lengthened, the signal cabin was at one end and the stairs up to the subway passage at the other with the access manhole to the 'cathedral' below the stairs but it's about 30 years since I last worked there or passed through. Are you confusing Clapham and Stockwell? Stockwell had the little door in the wall which opened to a narrow walkway and steps down into the old siding tunnel. You know under the platforms at the three Claphams were vast caverns stretching beyond the platform, ISTR that it was at Clapham North that I discovered the old slate electrical distribution board which fed the old WW2 shelters right at the very end of the invert. The inverts at those sites were where the original CCTV and PA equipment were located along with telephone link boxes on the old 100 pair lead covered cables that fed from the old Clapham North telephone exchange which was relocated to Stockwell after Clapham North flooded. Working in those places on days was just as bad as working in the running tunnels at night, absolutely everything covered in thick layers of tunnel dust. Using contractors is seen as cheaper because there are not the overheads associated with in house staff i.e. tools, overalls, holidays, sickness, admin etc but bringing in contractors means paying through the nose and in real terms is more about making the accounts look a little better by seeing costs as finite rather than infinite. Yes outsourcing engineering destroyed hundreds of years of experience and it made absolute fortunes for a few people as the void left by the downsizing of internal engineering was quickly filled by some small operations who quickly expanded and learnt as they went. Many former employees found jobs with the contractors but were on worse pay and conditions. The only good thing about the staff transferred to Metronet and Tube Lines under TUPE was that for the most part their conditions were largely unchanged although pensions were an issue at the Metronet companies IIRC and it took several years to resolve.
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Post by Nortube on Mar 21, 2013 13:59:25 GMT
I think the lengthening was a little before your time Like all C&SLRly stations, the platform tunnels were only about four cars long - around 200 feet. They were later extended to seven cars (around 350 feet) and the running tunnels widened as necessary in the early twenties when the C&SLRly was joined up to the CX branch at Camden and extended to Morden. Being termini, Euston and Clapham Common (and also Angel as an original terminus) had scissors crossovers - Clapham Common at the north and Angel and Euston at the south. When the platform tunnels were lengthened, they extended over the original crossovers and new crossovers were built in what was originally part of the running tunnels at Euston and Clapham Common. They didn't bother at Angel and just retained the connection to the siding from the NB road. At Clapham Common there was a siding adjacent to the SB track. I assume that this is the 99 feet long "pit siding" that is referred to in the C&SLRly timetable. I don't have a diagram of the layout at the time, but logic dictates that the siding would be north of the (then) scissors crossover to allow locos to reverse when stepping back. When the platforms were extended, the platform tunnel was expanded further north, through the existing running tunnels, to provide space for the new scissors crossover. This would have meant that the siding was now adjacent to the crossover but, because of widening in that area, it's possible that the widening cut into some of the original siding tunnel. Anyway, because there were no longer any locos needed once the extension opened and new stock was in uses, the siding was no longer needed and the entrance was blocked off. On the SB, just before the platform, there is a small door on the SB tunnel wall (from memory, this may be the same size as the door leading to the Stockwell siding) which I assumed gave access to the original siding space. There is an interesting article (with illustrations) written by Greathead (he of shield fame) on the platform extension and tunnel widening of the C&SLRly line. I haven't been in the inverts at the Claphams, but I have at Angel and the construction of the invert can be easily seen where the south end is strengthened because of taking the weight of the crossover (and trains using it) above. It also has the invert from the adjoining crossover area to the siding. I don't know about the invert at Clapham South, but the inverts at the island platform stations were certainly a lot bigger because of the larger tunnel diameter. edit I forgot, the siding is shown on the Carto.metro map:
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Post by railtechnician on Mar 21, 2013 17:31:17 GMT
I think the lengthening was a little before your time Like all C&SLRly stations, the platform tunnels were only about four cars long - around 200 feet. They were later extended to seven cars (around 350 feet) and the running tunnels widened as necessary in the early twenties when the C&SLRly was joined up to the CX branch at Camden and extended to Morden. Being termini, Euston and Clapham Common (and also Angel as an original terminus) had scissors crossovers - Clapham Common at the north and Angel and Euston at the south. When the platform tunnels were lengthened, they extended over the original crossovers and new crossovers were built in what was originally part of the running tunnels at Euston and Clapham Common. They didn't bother at Angel and just retained the connection to the siding from the NB road. At Clapham Common there was a siding adjacent to the SB track. I assume that this is the 99 feet long "pit siding" that is referred to in the C&SLRly timetable. I don't have a diagram of the layout at the time, but logic dictates that the siding would be north of the (then) scissors crossover to allow locos to reverse when stepping back. When the platforms were extended, the platform tunnel was expanded further north, through the existing running tunnels, to provide space for the new scissors crossover. This would have meant that the siding was now adjacent to the crossover but, because of widening in that area, it's possible that the widening cut into some of the original siding tunnel. Anyway, because there were no longer any locos needed once the extension opened and new stock was in uses, the siding was no longer needed and the entrance was blocked off. On the SB, just before the platform, there is a small door on the SB tunnel wall (from memory, this may be the same size as the door leading to the Stockwell siding) which I assumed gave access to the original siding space. There is an interesting article (with illustrations) written by Greathead (he of shield fame) on the platform extension and tunnel widening of the C&SLRly line. I haven't been in the inverts at the Claphams, but I have at Angel and the construction of the invert can be easily seen where the south end is strengthened because of taking the weight of the crossover (and trains using it) above. It also has the invert from the adjoining crossover area to the siding. I don't know about the invert at Clapham South, but the inverts at the island platform stations were certainly a lot bigger because of the larger tunnel diameter. Apologies! I thought we had been discussing the crossover that came out in 1977, my mistake! Yep the platform lengthening would've been a little over 50 years earlier I presume in the 1926 widening programme. I walked a lot of northern line tunnel over the years in dribs and drabs on various projects, Stockwell, Kennington, Embankment, CamdenTown, Euston and Bull & Bush stick out in my mind as the most interesting sites in my time, lots of nooks and crannies, disused areas, complicated cable routes etc. Archway is one of the sidings I never got to see, I had jobs in the canteen in the late 1970s fitting clocks and telephones but nothing at platform or track level there, I installed the lift telephone system at Tufnell Park but again did nothing on the track there either. One interesting site in Clapham was the substation at Clapham Common South Side where I used the ventilation shaft to access the running tunnels while the fan was running -- like walking into a force 9 gale and a maelstrom of very thick and sticky clumps of tunnel dust! In the early 1980s the building in front (converted houses ISTR) was LT bus offices and I worked in there installing auto telephones, the vent shaft was the cable route to get the auto lines up from the running tunnels. Angel is probably one of the reasons that I suffer from tinnitus these days, I worked in the step plate area when the pnuematic drills were going nineteen to the dozen. I would visit and attend every shift as the T/T wires were being restrung and then shoot off to Old Street substation to recommission the circuits before traffic each morning. The rotary converters at Euston substation probably didn't help as they were adjacent to the T/T relay room where I also spent a lot of time doing routine maintenance. The only other really noisy place that I worked was the old Bethnal Green substation basement where the T/T cupboard was in the same area as the rotary converters and I was down there for more than eight hours one shift, I couldn't use ear protection because I had to be on the phone all the time as we adjusted and readjusted the circuits.
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Post by Nortube on Mar 21, 2013 18:27:31 GMT
It's surprising what weird, wonderful and interesting things are seen underground. I visited the old Angel station many times and there was a piece of equipment that was situated between just inside the entrance to the invert. You'd walk from the old stairs at the bottom of the lift shaft and round the corner and there this thing was. It's hard to describe and it's a long while since I last saw it. It could have part of some equipment, a rest for some equipment, or whatever. I used to take people round and none of them could come with any suggestions as to what it was. Age was indeterminate, but it looked the sort of thing that could have been there from the twenties.
Noise is very deceiving underground and travels a long way. You can be walking along the track and it's deadly quiet, other than the crunch of ballast underfoot and the occasional hum from the relays or whatever. Another time you can hear PWay staff hammering away long before you get anywhere near their site. Or suddenly ghostly voices that are people walking along the adjacent tunnel and the sound is filtering through a cross passage. I think I've only heard drills in the tunnel one (just one drill) but that was enough. Very uncomfortable close up.
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Post by railtechnician on Mar 21, 2013 20:53:54 GMT
It's surprising what weird, wonderful and interesting things are seen underground. I visited the old Angel station many times and there was a piece of equipment that was situated between just inside the entrance to the invert. You'd walk from the old stairs at the bottom of the lift shaft and round the corner and there this thing was. It's hard to describe and it's a long while since I last saw it. It could have part of some equipment, a rest for some equipment, or whatever. I used to take people round and none of them could come with any suggestions as to what it was. Age was indeterminate, but it looked the sort of thing that could have been there from the twenties. Noise is very deceiving underground and travels a long way. You can be walking along the track and it's deadly quiet, other than the crunch of ballast underfoot and the occasional hum from the relays or whatever. Another time you can hear PWay staff hammering away long before you get anywhere near their site. Or suddenly ghostly voices that are people walking along the adjacent tunnel and the sound is filtering through a cross passage. I think I've only heard drills in the tunnel one (just one drill) but that was enough. Very uncomfortable close up. I don't recall what you are attempting to describe at Angel, as I mentioned elsewhere it was one of the first places I ever went as I was put to work in the old tram depot in Upper Street. The last time I saw old Angel was the night of the changeover when the new Station opened. I headed up the comms night diversion team on that job. The following week we had a few things to deal with at new Angel station and I haven't been there since, in fact I don't think I've even passed by it. The biggest fun there was during the construction being lowered down the shaft in a bucket by crane from the street! Deafening literally !!!! Rerailing jobs in tunnels were usually noisy one way or another, I did plenty of those as a signal lineman, both routine and emergency replacing broken rails etc. Mind you on those jobs I was making noise myself drilling holes with a battery 'bike' or Cembre drill and banging in pigs and bonds and it's not so bad when one is part of the problem!
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Ben
Box Boy
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Post by Ben on Mar 22, 2013 0:03:33 GMT
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Post by Nortube on Mar 22, 2013 1:04:55 GMT
Yes, that's the one. I've now saved it, thinks. It's a much better quality than the one that I photocopied many years ago (I think at Imperial College library). I see that I got the author wrong. Greathead published the paper (as mentioned in this document) on the original construction of the C&SLRly line. I think I got a copy of that at the same time. It included the track diagram as a pull-out. Another interesting document It was lucky that, as the C&SLRly was effectively the first of it's kind, there was a lot of information published about it in different places when it opened. Looking at the photos at the end, the crossover to the left for the pit siding at Clapham Common can be clearly seen, and I was correct in that the siding had been partly filled in as shown on the line drawing. edit I think this is the Greathead paper I mentioned (I'd have to compere it to my photocopy), but it doesn't have the line diagram: www.icevirtuallibrary.com/content/article/10.1680/imotp.1896.19660;jsessionid=dal66miq2dphq.x-telford-live-01
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Mar 22, 2013 1:21:43 GMT
I'll see if I can pull it and the Greathead from one of the Institutes tomorrow through the university access...
Incidentally, Euston must surely now have more disused tunnels now than ones in service! Would anyone know of a drawing showing both the alterations of the 20's reconstruction and the 1960s Victoria line works. For example, how proximate the siding is to Vics tunnels, and such.
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Post by Nortube on Mar 22, 2013 1:41:22 GMT
Thanks. On investigating the description on the ice site, it appears that the plates etc. are probably from p.112+ Meanwhile, if anybody is interested, I did find this on tunnelling: archive.org/details/tunnelshieldsuse00copprichwhich mentions some of the Underground work downloaded it not not read it yet
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