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Post by bsosaka on Mar 6, 2013 0:42:53 GMT
Edit The Northern line Northern line TBTC area thread had naturally extended into discussing driverless trains. As this is a subject all of its own, the relevant posts have been moved to a new thread - here. The Northern line TBTC area thread is still open for Northern line TBTC discussion Nortube
It is not just humans who can get in the way of trains. What about trees falling on the track or a shopping trolley. If there is no one to see the obstruction it becomes a danger. Outside sections of the railway have a completely different set of risk factors.
Driver less trains have been possible for a long time but the risk of not having someone in the front has yet to be resolved. The more automatic a train becomes the more likely the person sitting in the front will not focus.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2013 1:20:16 GMT
Exactly, so get rid of the person up front? Surely that's the answer to cure your concentration issue?
These issues you say of obstructions on the track can easily be detected wether its by use of CCTV, infrared or a laser system. Even more so to combat your scenario of trees on the line, just chop them down. Trespassers - provide adequate fencing (just like on high speed one) which makes it extremely difficult for anyone to get on or near the line and if you mean in tunnelled sections, provide PED's at every station on the line?
If there was a big risk of not having someone up front then why is it that the DLR seems to operate flawlessly week in week out?
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Post by bsosaka on Mar 6, 2013 7:35:09 GMT
DLR does have incidents and it does have people ready to drive the train. Also as far as I am aware most parts of DLR track up raised above ground. It is not really a good comparison considering the differences between the systems
As a rule the trees close to the track are maintained to prevent them falling but it has been known for trees and large branches to shut down services.
Even with adequate fencing people would still have the opportunity to walk onto the track from the platform. I can not imagine the cost of making all open areas of London underground accessed denied. It is a long time ago but there were three children (6,8,10 years old) who would take a walk from Mill Hill East to Finchley Central weekly. Luckily never hurt but the first reports always came from drivers.
Driver less train will happen but it is going to be a bit more involved and costly than a chainsaw and laser pointer.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2013 10:11:44 GMT
Who said anything about a laser pointer? Of course DLR operates as any system would (it fails) but the point is in comparison, take a look at both lines KPI's and you'll see the DLR is so much better. A fully autonomous railway wouldn't require someone to drive it out in times of difficulty because the unit behind would tip out and automatically draw behind the failed unit, couple up and push it out. As for people on the track, I think it's blown out of proportion to be honest. Jubilee gets it -agreed- but not very often and certainly extremely rare for it to happen in the city due to the grace of PED's.
Have you seen LUL's driverless spec document? It's worth a read and will clear up your questions and maybe even 'convert' you to the driverless way......
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Post by bsosaka on Mar 6, 2013 11:13:31 GMT
If it is possible could you post the document or a link to the document here. I would be very interested to read it.
As for KPI's they are purely a management tool and so though interesting are not particularly accurate.
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Post by Nortube on Mar 6, 2013 12:12:09 GMT
I think that, because of its nature, the DLR would be less likely to have people on the track, other than in the station area. On the Underground, the open sections are usually very easy to access, just be climbing over (or under) a short fence in most cases. On the DLR, a lot of the DLR track is access unfriendly because of the way that it is often constructed on viaducts etc. Also, there's less likelihood of external objects such as trees etc. falling on the track because there are very few trees around close to where the DLR runs. Mind you, there may be other risks that are less likely on the Underground, such as objects falling from building sites etc. in some areas. Also, although they're driverless, there are plenty of would be drivers in the "cab", although probably not an emergency stop button close by :-)
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Post by tubedriver on Mar 6, 2013 18:05:58 GMT
Why would you want a driverless system? Put thousands of people out of a job and frankly, I wouldn't want to get on a deep level tube train knowing there was no-one in the front!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2013 20:01:29 GMT
Ill post the link to the document when I find it. Have you never travelled on the DLR? Have you never flown by passenger jet? I'm sure you would have when you went to Oz! Many means of automation has already put thousands out of a job, it is the future and it will happen. Very brash coming out with that safety statement, do you honestly think a system would be rolled out which doesn't fail safe? Utter tosh!
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Post by PoshTubeBloke on Mar 6, 2013 21:15:30 GMT
Why would you want a driverless system? Put thousands of people out of a job and frankly, I wouldn't want to get on a deep level tube train knowing there was no-one in the front! Very much in agreement there. It's one thing to have a computer do all the work with a human supervising in an open space, but another to have no-one on board an aging train in a century old tunnel system... Definitely wouldn't risk it!
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Post by railtechnician on Mar 7, 2013 0:02:13 GMT
ATO/TBTC/Seltrac/Driverless.... There really isn't much scope between any of them to become a fully driverless system, TfL have released a document that shows how a driverless system would operate in tunnelled areas. Fascinating stuff! The technology is there and has been for some time so its something that should have happened years ago. Will it happen? Yes. In our life time? I doubt it. Don't be so sure, I see the issue of driverless trains as essentially a battle of wills between train drivers and management. We all know that the technology has been around for decades and in the case of LUL the working prototype in so many ways was the Victoria line. The travelling public knew that it was automated to a large extent when it opened and if the politics of doubt and improper perception that crept in, in subsequent years, had been properly handled I have no doubt at all, that all that stopped driverless LU trains from being a reality today was finance. As always the unions have railed against anything that will reduce the number of jobs in the industry over this issue and at times injected some scaremongering which has assisted sensationalist journalism to speculate about the inherent dangers of automation and so much else that, quite frankly, journalists are simply not qualified enough to discuss.
Unions often do more harm than good, had they embraced new technology instead of endlessly fighting everything 'on principle' so many would be in better employment today. I'm sure that's true for most industries and not just the railways which have been one of the major driving forces in terms of technical innovation and yet been unable to employ so much of that expertise due to factors not least of which are union intransigence. Of course the politicians have not helped, preferring to throw good money after bad on foreign wars and uncontrolled defence procurement which could have given the UK 21st century rail transportation before the end of the 20 th century had there been the will to do so. I think LU driverless trains will become a reality as long as the finance can be found and the political will is secured on all sides of the political spectrum, the latter being the greater issue.
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Post by railtechnician on Mar 7, 2013 0:15:13 GMT
Why would you want a driverless system? Put thousands of people out of a job and frankly, I wouldn't want to get on a deep level tube train knowing there was no-one in the front! I think it was the Duke of Edinburgh who once uttered "If progress put people out of work, most of the UK population would be out of work arrow makers", or words to that effect, and how true it is! In the 1960s the media were suggesting that we'd all be living the Utopian dream by the turn of the 20 th century, i.e. most of us would not be working at all but pursuing leisure activities instead while the majority of daily chores were automated. Of course I have no doubt that the speculators never really considered how we'd be remunerated to sustain such a lifestyle and they probably never banked upon the incompetence of future governments that we have seen come and go, leaving us poorer in many respects since then! As for not wanting to be on a driverless train, that's just silly, having a driver at the front is only marginally better than not having one. Just about anything a driver can do from the cab could be done from somewhere else using remote control and modern communications. On modern stock a driver will be more of a passenger than not as I understand it so he could be somewhere else!
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Post by bsosaka on Mar 7, 2013 1:30:00 GMT
Ill post the link to the document when I find it. Have you never travelled on the DLR? Have you never flown by passenger jet? I'm sure you would have when you went to Oz! Many means of automation has already put thousands out of a job, it is the future and it will happen. Very brash coming out with that safety statement, do you honestly think a system would be rolled out which doesn't fail safe? Utter tosh! Firstly, thanks in advance for digging out the document. Yes, I have travelled on the DLR and quite a few other trains systems that are automatic. None of them are old though and most are raised above the ground. It is also true that planes more or less fly themselves but I do not know of any commercial flight that does not have a qualified pilot on board. The last plane I was in only had one seat and no door! Safety on London Underground is always a compromise between cost and what they can get away with. If only one person dies each year because of driverless trains it will be considered nothing more than collateral damage. London underground are also not so forthcoming with the amount of persons hit by trains and persons nearly hit by trains. This type of information is essential in working out what is safe and what is not. Either they are not keeping these statistics or they are lying about it when FOI requests are made. A few years ago on the Northern line a piece of safety equipment called the trip cock was failing. Drivers, unions and management were in discussion regarding this but nothing was being resolved. Eventually the drivers just refused to drive the trains until the matter was taken seriously. On that day I was suddenly having to tip out every train that arrived on my platform. No one had bothered to tell me anything until I had a chance to talk to a driver. I was then sent to Mill Hill East to meet a train technician so he could start visual inspections of the equipment. The technician arrives and is also ill informed about the fault. This is the reality of a very slow reaction to a potential safety issue. I can accept driverless trains as part of the future but let's hope there are open and constructive plans to make them safe. Let's also hope that those people whose job will change will be given every assistance in finding alternative employment within the company.
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Post by tubedriver on Mar 7, 2013 17:50:03 GMT
While I don't doubt that plans for driverless trains are well advanced, I honestly don't know how it could be considered safe to have the equivalent of a train captain somewhere in the middle of the train (that in itself would be lovely at 0830 down the Bank branch on a weekday, they would need to bring back the Guard's compartment), on a very deep level tube line. What happens if that train stalls/catches fire between stations? It could take the TC 20 minutes to get through the train to the leading car - believe me, I've done a WDM in the pipe on a Monday in rush hour.
I don't know, too may questions, too many "but what if" scenarios! I know it will happen one day, but as a dyed in the wool train driver, I just can't see how it's completely safe. I know everyone talks about the DLR, but that was BUILT to be driverless, and it's above ground!
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Post by Nortube on Mar 7, 2013 18:55:24 GMT
Don't worry, by the time they get driverless trains sorted out, transporters will be everywhere and there will be no need for trains at all. "Beam me up Scotty!"
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Post by class345 on Mar 7, 2013 19:14:25 GMT
If history has shown us anything about railways it's that it's all about "what if" situations.
Take 7/7 for instance, if McNulty gets his way, there would be no driver, just a couple of station staff, and many more people would die, with evacuation taking longer.
As someone who has evacuated 3 trains and a large station simultaneously, railway staff know what they are doing and do it far quicker than the police/emergency services.*
*No disrespect to the services, but they are not up to speed on evacuation plans, they don't know how to get the line blocked, they don't know how to know the line is blocked, and they refuse to go trackside if the overhead wires are still live.
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