Camden Town loops

[dave1]

Came across a reference which I have not seen before Northbound Loop and Southbound Loop can anyone say exactly where these are/were.

[dave1]

No takers on this I thought there was some Northern line fans on here.

[Nortube]

At least one ex I/Op on here   Just catching up 

I've never heard of loops at Camden (and I think I should know! )

The only officialy named track loops that I can think of on the Northen line are:

Kennington loop - an actual (almost) circle loop for N - S CX reversing (now also S-N CX reversing platform 1 to platform 2)

Kings Cross loop - connects the Northern and Piccadilly lines. Also used for S-N reversing via the Euston loop

Euston loop - the remaining part of the old NB Bank track. Used when reversing N_S at Euston or reversing S-N via the Kings Cross loop

Golders Green loop - the NB passing loop south of the station. Allows access to both NB platforms. Can be used for stabling. Most frequent use was in the 70's when there was an off-peak Golders Green - Kennington via CX service. These trains were usually routed here to wait until platform 3 was free.

I'll also add Brent Cross loops for the sake of completeness, although the track was lifted years ago. A passing loop on either side of the running lines at Brent Cross (was Brent) station, they were installed as part of the Edgware extension. They allowed a train to leapfrog a train in the platform.

There are no passing facilities at Camden Town in either direction on either branch, as the Carto Metro map shows.

Having said said, railways are notorious for having misleading or unofficial track names (even the NR Sectional Appendices naming doesn't match other NR official sources at times!). Sometimes eveen different departments have their own way of labelling things.

The nearest thing I can think of that might be termed as loops at Camden Town are on the CX branch junctions south of the station,

NB - the section of track between the junction at Mornington Crescent and the signal to proceed towards platform 1

NB - the section of track between the junction at Mornington Crescent and the signal to proceed towards platform 3

SB - the section between the CX / Bank junction from platform 2 and the junction with the SB CX from platform 4

SB - the section between the CX / Bank junction from platform 4 and the junction with the SB CX from platform 2

However, these are not passing loops in the sense that a loop is uually defined (e.g. a SB CX train from platform 4 cannot be by-passed by another SB train from platform4), they are just a part of a complex junction where a train is waiting its turn to depart.

The nearest to classing these as a passing loop would be (e.g.) that a SB CX train from platform 4 ends up in the section, leaving the junction behind clear for a Bank train to depart, if the following train from platform 4 is indeed a Bank train. Whilst the train is in the section, a CX train from platform 2 could pass it and then the platform 4 train could follow. 

However, that would not be my definition of a loop and I don't know of anyhwere where these are officially labelled as such (although they may be labelled as that on signal diagrams). Trainees certainly weren't taught that.

The NB and SB branch doesn't have these areas, because they are basically a Y junction directly to or from the platform.

[dave1]

Apr 20, 2023 11:38:33 GMT Nortube said:

At least one ex I/Op on here   Just catching up 

I've never heard of loops at Camden (and I think I should know! )

The only officialy named track loops that I can think of on the Northen line are:

Kennington loop - an actual (almost) circle loop for N - S CX reversing

Kings Cross loop - connects the Northern and Piccadilly lines

Golders Green loop - the passing loop south of the station

There are no passing facilities at Camden Town in either direction on either branch, as the Carto Metro map shows.

Having said said, railways are notorious for having misleading or unofficial track names (even the NR Sectional Appendices naming doesn't match other NR official sources at times!)

The nearest thing I can think of that might be termed as loops at Camden Town are on the CX branch junctions south of the station,

NB - the section of track between the junction at Mornington Crescent and the signal to proceed towards platform 1

NB - the section of track between the junction at Mornington Crescent and the signal to proceed towards platform 3

SB - the section between the CX / Bank junction from platform 2 and the junction with the SB CX from platform 4

SB - the section between the CX / Bank junction from platform 4 and the junction with the SB CX from platform 2

However, these are not passing loops in the sense that a loop is uually defined (e.g. a SB CX train from platform 4 cannot be by-passed by another SB train from platform4), they are just a part of a complex junction where a train is waiting its turn to depart.

The nearest to classing these as a passing loop would be (e.g.) that a SB CX train from platform 4 ends up in the section, leaving the junction behind clear for a Bank train to depart, if the following train from platform 4 is indeed a Bank train. Whilst the train is in the section, a CX train from platform 2 could pass it and then the platform 4 train could follow. 

However, that would not be my definition of a loop and I don't know of anyhwere where these are officially labelled as such (although they may be labelled as that on signal diagrams). Trainees certainly weren't taught that.

The NB and SB branch doesn't have these areas, because they are basically a Y junction directly to or from the platform.

NT,



Thanks I think you have hit the nail on the head I saw the mention of the loops in the yellow peril for when they brought the push button desk into service.

[Nortube]

I missed Euston loop off the list (now added, with some additional loops info.)

See my comments at the end regarding Camden Town

Although rather off topic, as general signal phone information for anyone interested:

Signal phones generally went to a panel on the platform, generally at the headwall / tailwall end. The panel contained signal indicators and toggle keys to select the signal phone that had been operated. There was also a bell on the platform. When the driver picked up the phone (it had to be held vertically to make contact), the bell rang and that signal indicator illuminated. Often the Station Manager / Inspector’s office (now Supervisor’s office) would be located some distance from the panel, meaning it would usually take a while for the phone to be answered, especially if they didn’t hear the bell!
Over time, the Supervisor’s office ended up upstairs, usually as the station control room, and the signal phone panel was extended to there.

I did a survey of all the signal phones and where they went to in 2006/7. Some additional phones were discovered during track walks and, where possible, tested to see who answered them. Some phones were obviously no longer in use. Auto signals A615 (NB) and A616 (SB) in the vicinity of the disused Weston Street signal cabin  had signal phones that went to the next station, but nobody knew anything about them and there was no answer, so presumably disused.

Of course, now that there are generally no longer signals as such on the Northern line, I assume that signal phones in that sense are now redundant.

Originally, the only communication a driver had with the Controller was via the DRIver COntroller system or via the tunnel telephone wires, oth using a handset that was clipped on to the TT wires. The introduction of the train radio did away with the need for Drico, and the introduction of secure train radio generally did away with the need for signal phones (as long as the radio was working), as specific instructions could be given to the driver via the radio to safely pass a signal if required.

Although rare (as far as I know), there may have been some signal-type phones where the Controller could speak directly to the driver, rather than a phone going to the station panel. An example being those listed for the Camden Town loops. I don’t know if any had a bell that the Controller could ring to attract the driver’s attention, or they were reliant on the driver calling the Controller.

There were also other ways of a Controller making contact, albeit indirectly, whether by a sign that lit up to tell the driver to use the phone or, in the case of the exit signal B36A at Kennington loop, a bell that the controller could ring. Not sure if it was it’s official purpose, but it was rumoured that it was there to wake up drivers that had fallen asleep at the signal when the train didn’t move after the signal cleared. In the 70’s when all the off-peak trains reversed round the loop and there were often large gaps in the service due to crew shortages, it was quite common for a train to depart platform 2 and go all the way to B36A and have a 15 minute wait there (the loop could hold three trains, and in normal circumstances, a train would be held in two different places before reaching B36A).


In the case of the Camden Town loops, I don’t quite know what their purpose would have been. The loop outlet signals all had phones that went to the station panel (or signal box at the time of operation), so I can’t see that these phones were inted for driver use. The only thing that I can think of is that these would have been for non-driver use, such as P-way, signalling, or other staff that would be on the track and needed direct contact with the Controller. Radio, that would give a direct link to the Controller, would have superseded these.

The phones in the loops, mentioned in the YP that go the controller’s desk are something that I can’t remember seeing (it doesn’t mean that they weren’t there). As the exit signals in the loops had phones, then the driver could easily make contact with the station from them.

Books page  www.microlp.co.uk/Homea/books.html    link

Signal post telephone list  link

(old site - some links may not work)

[dave1]

Euston loop yes this was what was the northbound line before the diversion?



Signal phones generally went to a panel on the platform, generally at the headwall / tailwall end. The panel contained signal indicators and toggle keys to select the signal phone that had been operated. There was also a bell on the platform. When the driver picked up the phone (it had to be held vertically to make contact), the bell rang and that signal indicator illuminated. Often the Station Manager / Inspector’s office (now Supervisor’s office) would be located some distance from the panel, meaning it would usually take a while for the phone to be answered, especially if they didn’t hear the bell!

Over time, the Supervisor’s office ended up upstairs, usually as the station control room, and the signal phone panel was extended to there.



I have seen panels at various locations like you say on platforms and when opened as they were not locked keys for various signals.


I did a survey of all the signal phones and where they went to in 2006/7. Some additional phones were discovered during track walks and, where possible, tested to see who answered them. Some phones were obviously no longer in use. Auto signals A615 (NB) and A616 (SB) in the vicinity of disused City Road had signal phones that went to the next station, but nobody knew anything about them and there was no answer, so presumably disused.



Perhaps those telephones were due to the long section between two stations?


There were also other ways of a Controller making contact, albeit indirectly, whether by a sign that lit up to tell the driver to use the phone or, in the case of the exit signal B36A at Kennington loop, a bell that the controller could ring. Not sure if it was it’s official purpose, but it was rumoured that it was there to wake up drivers that had fallen asleep at the signal when the train didn’t move after the signal cleared. In the 70’s when all the off-peak trains reversed round the loop and there were often large gaps in the service due to crew shortages, it was quite common for a train to depart platform 2 and go all the way to B36A and have a 15 minute wait there (the loop could hold three trains, and in normal circumstances, a train would be held in two different places before reaching B36A).



Interesting did they have any other places that had a bell which could be sounded to alert the driver?


In the case of the Camden Town loops, I don’t quite know what their purpose would have been. The loop outlet signals all had phones that went to the station panel (or signal box at the time of operation), so I can’t see that these phones were intended for driver use. The only thing that I can think of is that these would have been for non-driver use, such as P-way, signalling, or other staff that would be on the track and needed direct contact with the Controller. Radio, that would give a direct link to the Controller, would have superseded these.



The more I think of it I agree these telephones must have been for other staff if there was a failure or something else they needed to contact the signalman.

The subject of communications is very interesting, the way it has changed over the years when you think the driver had to stop and attach his telephone before he could speak. I remember using Piccadilly Circus during the time it was being refurbished and there were telephones at the driver’s end something from the ark as they were candlestick ones!

I was once told there were purple lights and when switched on they allowed the trains to proceed without stopping to do with the Royal family so the train could get to Hendon for the aerodrome the switches were in the signal boxes apparently.

[Nortube]

Yes, Euston loop was the original NB line. The NB end of the loop terninates at a sand drag at the south end of the platform behind the wall where the platform narrows.


On other lines, there may have been a similar system of alerting the driver, usually as a means of getting the driver to use a nearby phone. I think that there is somewhere on the District(?) line where a sign illuminates telling the driver to go to the phone.

I can't think of anywhere else on the Northern line that had a bell in the same way as the one in Kennington loop. At least not in operation from when I joined in 1973, and nothing that was ever taught. One place there may have been one is in a tunnel siding, but not that I'm aware of.


A615 and A616 were in the vicinty of Weston Street signal cabin, not disused City Rd as I put in error. I will amend that.
Weston Street was an intermediate signal cabin in the tunnel on the long section between Angel and Kings Cross. The tracks also had the standard accelleration slope associated with station starters, so that trains held at these signals had an assisted start. I suspect that the signal phones at these signals were added when Weston Street signal cabin closed.


Regarding the purple lights and Hendon, I think that that is yet another urban myth regarding the Royal family and transport.
Apart from whether the Royal family would actually use the tube for Hendon (extremely unlikely), the system doesn't seem plausible.

I can't see any reason that drivers wouldn't need a light to tell them to non-stop a station. If a train was non-stopping as a one-off when not in passenger service (e.g. a speial or empty train), then the driver would know that they would be non-stopping.
If a train had to be instructed to non-stop a station because it was closed, then I’m assuming that drivers would be told this verbally or by a notice at the station itself. Regular closures, like Mornington Crescent, had non-stop boards that were displayed on the platform. I can’t see special lights (presumably located next to the starter) being fitted for this purpose and operated by the signalman.

The nearest I can think of to any of this is when they had a spell of running 9-car trains on the CX branch to Edgware. As a timetabled service, I can’t remember if any of them actually no-stopped a station. This would be highly unlikely as they would probably be sandwiched between an all-stopper anyway, so nothing would be gained by non-stopping if they were just going to be held by the train in front. As the trains were 9 cars long and the platforms were only 7 cars long (some open platforms were built for 9 cars on the Edgware extension), these trains stopped with either the front or rear two cars in the tunnel. The Guard, working from the 7th car, cutting out the two cars.

On the Edgware branch, there were only two stations where a train could leapfrog the one in front. Golders Green (via the middle platform) or Brent Cross which had a passing loop either side of the island platform. Brent Cross being the only station on the Northern line where not all tracks had a platform. A train would be signalled via the loops via a junction signal in the normal way, and there would be no need for a specific light to tell the driver.

It may be that the signalman did control the switching of a light on and off, but I can’t think of any reason why. However, the Underground is full of lots of mysteries and things that aren’t the norm.

There was a lot of original equipment still in use on the combine, some of it may still be in use, or at least still in situ.

Morden shunters cabin still had the original Tannoy (made by Tannoy) public address sytem which was used to call up trains and other uses. Speakers were positiond around the depot, near ground level, and one or more of these speakers could be selected from a panel by holding down the relevant toggle switch(es). All the equipent was installed in a large wooden cabinet which had the panel and microphone on top at aroud chest height.

Very common were the wind-up magneto phones for when a direct line was wanted. Morden shunters cabin had one of these, together with the associated jack plug panel, with connections to the Controller, Regulator, Station Manager, Depot Manager, Morden platform phone boxes.

At a station, where direct contact was needed, a magneto phone and their panel may be installed in the small (often wooden) telephone kiosks (or passenger toilets as they were nicknamed!) where the autophone was located.  

You've probably seen it, but the late Mike Horne's Metadyne site has a lot of interesting information, including an article on the LU phone sysytem

Metadyne site  link

Metadyne - LU internal telephone phone system  link

[dave1]

Ah yes I've seen that sand drag at Euston I remember before the Victoria line was built it was a very narrow platform like the Clapham North/Common.

I suppose there was no need for anything at other locations and like you say a train would go round the loop and wait for some time not like changing ends in a siding. Was the bell operated from the signal box, Leicester Sq or locally?
Perhaps those signal ones went to Weston St signal box when it was open and they just left them when it closed perhaps even going to the nearest station?

I agree with the purple lights although I think this was in the 1930/40s don't forget Down St station is not that far from Buckingham Palace so a train could leave the siding pick up it's passengers then travel to Kings Cross and reverse via the loop, and then like you say it could be one of those myth's. Where I worked we had lots of rumours and some were just that but the ones that was not highly secretive there was even some rooms below that you had to be a certain grade to enter.

These lights would they over ride the normal signals I don't think so perhaps it was just where there were signal boxes so that the signalmen knew what was going on. I have seen boards on the platform when  going through saying that the station is closed but that has been in recent times so to speak 20 years or so.

I forgot about the 9 car trains that's a thought could be to do with them.
There are a lot of things which seem to be old out of date etc still around I have seen some what looks like cameras and there is a modern camera nearby.

I hope they have saved the Tannoy equipment's sounds great I have seen old green units at the front end of some platforms.

Those phones hand wound very nice there must have been thousands around the system at one time.
I have seen Mike Horne's site very informative such a shame he passed.

[Nortube]

I’m not sure where the bell in Kennington loop was operated from. I assume that it would be locally. At the time, the local Kennington Station Manager’s office / booking-on point was at the south end of platform 2. It would be simpler to have a switch in there and run a cable round the loop, than to have a direct connection to Leicester Sq or Cobourg St. (I’m not sure when the bell actually came into use). There were direct phone lines from the Regulator and Controller to the office, so it would just need a phone call to the SM.

If the official reason for the bell was for the driver to use the signal phone, it may be that the bell switch was housed in the signal phone panel on the headwall. That way, the SM (or whoever) would be in a position to talk to the driver when he picked up the phone.

I’m not sure if the signals at Western St had phones to the signal cabin or not. The signal cabin was at track level between the tunnels and the signalman had physical access to the tunnels. So he may have just talked to the driver that way. The signal cabin closed in 1921, not long after the automatic signa working was introduced, and I assume that that is when direct signal phone lines to the stations were installed

Still not sure about any Buckingham Palace-related reasons. Without concrete evidence to prove or disprove things, nothing can be certain. No doubt there were special arrangements to evacuate the Royal Family, and indeed, the tube could be one way, but I wouldn’t like to rely on the tube as to the best way to Hendon in these circumstances. At the very least, it only needs a power cut, and the train is trapped, but there are many other reasons why the train may not complete it’s journey in war time. Travelling by vehicle would be the most flexible way or, more likely, by helicopter, depending on the circumstances.

Another thing is the so-called secret tube platform at Buckingham Palace, apparently as a spur off the Bakerloo(?) line, for evacuation. This is an urban myth that keeps popping up, with no proof. Theoretically that would be convenient, but certainly not logical for a one-off use, apart from the problems of using a tube anyway, as mentioned above.

[dave1]

I suppose operating the bell locally would be the best solution as unlike a train in a siding the driver has gone round the loop and if there is a long time until it comes into the platform the driver could easily fall asleep.

The phones at Weston St must have been diverted to the stations like you say after the signal box closed, how did the signalman det to the signal box was there stairs?

I only mentioned about a train from Down St to Kings Cross then the loop to Hendon I have no proof such a thing was considered but one would expect all options.
Buckingham Palace station now I read about that on the Victoria line as you have said one of the many myths that gets put about.

[Nortube]

Acces to Weston St cabin was via stairs from street level. There was an emergency detrainment exit from the area, so I assume that this was the same set of stairs. I presume the stairs would have been fairly narrow and nothing fancy. Access to the tunnels from the cabin was via a tunnel segment gap on each tunnel (still visible from what I remember).

Working conditions must have been poor - dirty and hot.

[dave1]

The access to Weston St must have been very small as it was not going to be a station I seem to remember that the C&SLR stations were small in construction although it has been some years since I used one normally use the Victoria line.