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Post by dave1 on Nov 25, 2016 10:01:18 GMT
I see that there is no service on the Rayners Lane branch due to a shortage of trains. I wonder had the Heathrow extension not opened would the same have happened. There is a shortage of trains due to flatted wheels, do the drivers not drive defensive yes they would lose time but there would not be any flatted wheels or at least not so many. I understand that they are running the rail adhesion train on that section but it seems strange that the problem has only occurred over the past few years.
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Post by railtechnician on Nov 25, 2016 16:02:16 GMT
I see that there is no service on the Rayners Lane branch due to a shortage of trains. I wonder had the Heathrow extension not opened would the same have happened. There is a shortage of trains due to flatted wheels, do the drivers not drive defensive yes they would lose time but there would not be any flatted wheels or at least not so many. I understand that they are running the rail adhesion train on that section but it seems strange that the problem has only occurred over the past few years. Dave, Wheel flats happened on 73 stock ever since they came into service in the late 1970s. In the early 1980s I worked the section from Ealing Common to South Harrow installing PA equipment and in the leaf fall season I watched trains skid right through Sudbury Hill station on the eastbound and can vividly remember passengers jumping out onto the track and walking back to the station. That was perhaps the worst such incident that I witnessed but the most careful drivers could still be caught out by leaves on the line on a down hill station approach and in some places on the flat too. Just as when driving a car locking the wheels during braking is an issue that requires skill to avoid. However, I expect a train driver to be disadvantaged by comparison as s/he will have been taught The Road. The problem being that for a train The Road would not be expected to vary in terms of conditions in the same way that a highway would except in relatively extreme conditions.
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Post by railtechnician on Nov 26, 2016 10:35:08 GMT
I see that there is no service on the Rayners Lane branch due to a shortage of trains. I wonder had the Heathrow extension not opened would the same have happened. There is a shortage of trains due to flatted wheels, do the drivers not drive defensive yes they would lose time but there would not be any flatted wheels or at least not so many. I understand that they are running the rail adhesion train on that section but it seems strange that the problem has only occurred over the past few years. Service suspended Acton Town to Uxbridge with big delays to the rest of the line, up to over 30 trains cancelled. I can't speak for London but here in Lincs we are definitely in leaf fall season, everything hereabouts has been wet and slippery for the last week or more. I assume that leaf fall is the basic cause of wheel flats on 73 stock. I doubt there's any easy answer to the problem without a fundamental change to the traction braking system such as retrofitting anti-lock brakes but new stock with new technology is going to be the best answer if it can be afforded.
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Post by Nortube on Nov 26, 2016 10:52:58 GMT
About 50% of the service (39 trains) at one point apparently. This is far more trains than would normally be expected for flats. Piccadilly line drivers and management relations are very poor, resulting in a 24 hour strike next week. The same for the Hammersmith and City line. It is easier to create flats on the 73stock Piccadilly line trains than it is for the new stock in use on the H&C lines Steve Griffiths (LU boss) has issued a notice regarding the Piccadilly line stock flats, which ends with: "Clearly this is having a really significant impact for thousands of our customers and we need to take urgent action to address the root causes and get our service back to normal. To support this, Tony Matthews, the Piccadilly line General Manager has commissioned a Formal Investigation Report (FIR) into this disruption. This investigation will be forensic in its examination of the facts and will involve asset and operational staff, engineering specialists, the British Transport Police, the ORR and trade union representatives. It will seek to identify why this has happened and make recommendations that will stop it happening again." Read into that what you will
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Post by railtechnician on Nov 26, 2016 11:33:47 GMT
About 50% of the service (39 trains) at one point apparently. This is far more trains than would normally be expected for flats. Piccadilly line drivers and management relations are very poor, resulting in a 24 hour strike next week. The same for the Hammersmith and City line. It is easier to create flats on the 73stock Piccadilly line trains than it is for the new stock in use on the H&C lines Steve Griffiths (LU boss) has issued a notice regarding the Piccadilly line stock flats, which ends with: "Clearly this is having a really significant impact for thousands of our customers and we need to take urgent action to address the root causes and get our service back to normal. To support this, Tony Matthews, the Piccadilly line General Manager has commissioned a Formal Investigation Report (FIR) into this disruption. This investigation will be forensic in its examination of the facts and will involve asset and operational staff, engineering specialists, the British Transport Police, the ORR and trade union representatives. It will seek to identify why this has happened and make recommendations that will stop it happening again." Read into that what you will I have to say that it is easy to read the blindingly obvious as a threat to drivers on the grounds that they are somehow responsible for the wheel flats through some action other than normal driving practice. It is interesting as regards "It will seek to identify why this has happened and make recommendations that will stop it happening again." The causes of wheel flats are known, to date and for the last 40 years LT/LU has failed to prevent wheel flats in leaf fall season. Of course, unless wheel technology has changed to obviate the need for tyres, technically the condition is not wheel flats but tyre flats. One wonders if the tyres are of lower quality these days apart from the obvious leaves on the rails which are a very effective lubricant in the one place where meeting metals prefer friction. Assuming that no sabotage is involved it will be interesting to know what the FIR discovers from a technical view point. It may just be that with the recent wet weather coinciding with unusually high leaf fall that the slippery rails have been sustained for a longer period than normal. As I mentioned upthread Sudbury Hill was a station I recall as being problematic for stopping in leaf fall season and I doubt that it is any different now. All it takes is one or two such spots and drivers who have seldom or never been trained to do anything but 'the perfect run' under pressure to maintain the service AFAIP and who have yet to have experienced very adverse conditions to be the catalyst for tyre flats. One must also take into account that we have had a couple of really mild winters recently and that this year is quite different from those in terms of wet weather.
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Post by Old Driver on Nov 26, 2016 14:52:22 GMT
I see that there is no service on the Rayners Lane branch due to a shortage of trains. I wonder had the Heathrow extension not opened would the same have happened. There is a shortage of trains due to flatted wheels, do the drivers not drive defensive yes they would lose time but there would not be any flatted wheels or at least not so many. I understand that they are running the rail adhesion train on that section but it seems strange that the problem has only occurred over the past few years. Service suspended Acton Town to Uxbridge with big delays to the rest of the line, up to over 30 trains cancelled. If you look at the OP it said no service on the Rayners lane branch, I donโt think they would have run Picc trains between Uxbridge and Rayners Lane. Please pay more attention.
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Post by Old Driver on Nov 26, 2016 14:53:27 GMT
Service suspended Acton Town to Uxbridge with big delays to the rest of the line, up to over 30 trains cancelled. I can't speak for London but here in Lincs we are definitely in leaf fall season, everything hereabouts has been wet and slippery for the last week or more. I assume that leaf fall is the basic cause of wheel flats on 73 stock. I doubt there's any easy answer to the problem without a fundamental change to the traction braking system such as retrofitting anti-lock brakes but new stock with new technology is going to be the best answer if it can be afforded. I think you are correct that it is leaves which have caused the problem but itโs not the first time this has happened and like driving a car you drive according to the conditions the only difference is no rails. Trains can skid but it is down to the driver to have his train under control if it means loosing time then so be it. I remember some 30 years ago it had rained ever so slightly but I entered a platform and the wheels lost adhesion and you could hear the skidding a simple release of the brakes and then gradual application and all was well. There were slight flats as a result but as it was old stock you could spin them out and no one was the wiser unless they looked at the wheels which Iโm sure would have given the game away.
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Post by Old Driver on Nov 26, 2016 14:54:34 GMT
About 50% of the service (39 trains) at one point apparently. This is far more trains than would normally be expected for flats. Piccadilly line drivers and management relations are very poor, resulting in a 24 hour strike next week. The same for the Hammersmith and City line. It is easier to create flats on the 73stock Piccadilly line trains than it is for the new stock in use on the H&C lines Steve Griffiths (LU boss) has issued a notice regarding the Piccadilly line stock flats, which ends with: "Clearly this is having a really significant impact for thousands of our customers and we need to take urgent action to address the root causes and get our service back to normal. To support this, Tony Matthews, the Piccadilly line General Manager has commissioned a Formal Investigation Report (FIR) into this disruption. This investigation will be forensic in its examination of the facts and will involve asset and operational staff, engineering specialists, the British Transport Police, the ORR and trade union representatives. It will seek to identify why this has happened and make recommendations that will stop it happening again." Read into that what you will I was not aware of the strike action that is going to take place but it looks as if management are going to use the police to find out what has happened and if there was any deliberate action to cause the flats. They have been running the RAT well surely if they had not allowed the situation to get as bad they could have run a restricted service but as the number of trains is very high then itโs just not possible.
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Post by Nortube on Nov 28, 2016 8:48:57 GMT
I see that the Picc line are no longer stating that they have a "shortage of trains". At 08:30 this morning, they have: "Piccadilly Line: Severe delays while we carry out repairs to our trains" So, apparently, they no longer have a train shortage, just delays while they repair them. This message gives the impression that they are carrying out running repairs to the trains whilst they are about on the road - perhaps it's the rail equivalent of an AA van turning up at the station and giving the wheels a quick grind
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Post by dave1 on Nov 28, 2016 9:11:38 GMT
I prefer the RAC but yes it does look like that but they have a service albeit restricted and going by the wording change at Acton Town it could be a shuttle service.
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drico
Station Inspector
Thank you driver, off clips.
Posts: 202
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Post by drico on Nov 28, 2016 10:52:34 GMT
It's the same old tfl (wheel) Spin ๐๐
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Post by railtechnician on Nov 28, 2016 14:59:50 GMT
It's the same old tfl (wheel) Spin ๐๐ Yes I'm afraid LUL persists with its misleading unhelpful information which serves only to frustrate the travelling public. Some idiot in charge of LUL PR believes that being economical with the truth and stringing passengers along makes life for passengers more bearable.
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