Golders Green 1978

[dave1]

Just wondering if anyone can help. In 1978 there was some special working where the southbound service ran via the northbound line to Hampstead. Trains ran from the middle platform via the northbound loop then to Hampstead, my question is how would they have done the interlocking as the levers would have been wrong and any interlocking would have been a major job to alter?

[railtechnician]

Sept 5, 2016 8:51:42 GMT dave1 said:

Just wondering if anyone can help. In 1978 there was some special working where the southbound service ran via the northbound line to Hampstead. Trains ran from the middle platform via the northbound loop then to Hampstead, my question is how would they have done the interlocking as the levers would have been wrong and any interlocking would have been a major job to alter?

I worked on that job, we (Whitechapel Signal New Works) were recabling the Northern both roads between Chalk Farm and Golders Green when a P Way walker discovered blue asbestos in the Southbound tunnel that he had been walking for years. Immediately a specialist asbestos removal team was arranged and signal staff were offered respirator masks (these were the days before automatic issue of PPE including safety helmets, masks, ear defenders etc) and told to carry on working in those areas of both tunnels which were still accessible. Most night staff refused and were returned to day shift the very next morning! I and one colleague volunteered to remain, I had been on the job little more than a year if that and was happy with the better rate of pay on night work as it was in those days. That part of the Northern was filthy, most of the tube tunnels were no different at the time and we had been climbing all over and stamping on white asbestos (the anti-noise panelling) for weeks reducing it to dust as we dressed the single and two core 1/064 lead covered cables into the brackets with a naval '26' as the command to heave.

In all honesty I have little or no recollection of what we did signalling wise apart from making the signalling bidirectional to allow the necessary movement of trains through a single tunnel. I can only recall rewiring a signal location on the northbound road at the never opened Bull & Bush station on night shift. Subsequently I spent about six weeks booking on, on day shift, at a temporary Golders Green signal depot which was a standard 8' x 8' wooden hut at the southern end, just off the northbound platform although apart from providing an extension telephone on the IMR auto line and running AC Main 2 core 19/064 cable over the cable bridge from southbound to northbound I have little recollection of anything done outside the IMR. We certainly did some safety signalling rewiring in the IMR which the night staff would've wired in and single road working would've been initiated in a night time signal changeover. I can still recall the Bonus Unit Checker, George Lockyer, coming to the IMR to see what we were doing from a bonus scheme standpoint and leaving an impression of his rubber bonus stamp on the relay rack where I was working. I was at the time a newbie signal wireman and was still learning about the different types of safety relays, in the mornings while drinking a cuppa our supervisor, Alan Munro, would ask questions to see what we had learnt e.g. 'what is the difference in contact arrangements between a 6vdc and 12vdc style 'F' safety signalling relay?'

Someone somewhere may have details and possibly a print of the single road signalling arrangement but I do not. That said somewhere in my notes I still have the comms details and drawing showing track layout for the later resignalling changeover which was one of the first that I was ever involved in. I worked initially one track dropping board but when my colleague took a pn break I worked both and carried on working them for Eric Eden (head of signal New Works) the signalling tester at the time and kept me in cups of tea throughout the recommissioning of the signalling.

 

[dave1]

RT thanks some interesting info there. I am almost sure that they would not have altered the locking as such, it would have been easier to change the machine as the way the signals G4B from the middle road to the NB loop and then G48 which was a spare lever for movement towards Hampstead looking at the layout as normal.

I remember reading in 'Rails through the clay' that Asbestos was used quite extensively on the underground somewhere on the Piccadilly line east of Kings Cross was another but they did not do any special working. I also agree someone must have some prints as well as other info but trying to find it well I have more chance of winning the Lotto and that will never happen. I went to the museum once but it was like looking in a Haystack for the needle.

[railtechnician]

Sept 8, 2016 11:53:07 GMT dave1 said:

RT thanks some interesting info there. I am almost sure that they would not have altered the locking as such, it would have been easier to change the machine as the way the signals G4B from the middle road to the NB loop and then G48 which was a spare lever for movement towards Hampstead looking at the layout as normal.

I remember reading in 'Rails through the clay' that Asbestos was used quite extensively on the underground somewhere on the Piccadilly line east of Kings Cross was another but they did not do any special working. I also agree someone must have some prints as well as other info but trying to find it well I have more chance of winning the Lotto and that will never happen. I went to the museum once but it was like looking in a Haystack for the needle.

I don't have the layout of GG to hand so quoting signal numbers to me after almost 40 years doesn't mean much. What I will say is that signals would do whatever was required to allow the necessary moves including changing the locking to maintain proper safety.
In those days before H&S changed almost every working practice nothing was impossible. You might not believe the amount of work that would be done in 24 hours across the entire system if a wrong side failure or other safety related incident occurred anywhere.
ISTR that when a train on the Vic line was inadvertently reversed down a main line at King's Cross instead of into the reversing siding in the 1980s a decision was taken to install a fixed red light and trainstop there to prevent it happening again. Within 48 hours enough single light heads, red lenses and trainstops had been procured from various stores around the job, refurbished as necessary including red leading and silvering etc and installed at every site with a remotely similar layout. That was instant action that AFAIK is much the same these days. A few years before I retired there was a wrong side signal failure on the DR, within several hours every prime critical relay on all lines had been identified and signal staff everywhere were out on site swapping relays with others in the rooms to ensure the integrity of the prime critical relays until the signal overhaul shop could provide enough fully 'checked to standard' relays for us to change them out night after night in the following weeks. Following the Potters Bar train wreck caused by poorly maintained points within 48 hours every set of points on all LU lines had been checked looking for similar issues. 

Asbestos still exists in large amounts throughout the Underground, it cannot be removed. Earls Court control room and all the offices on the Warwick Road side of the station exit passageway are constructed from asbestos sheet, walls, ceilings and flooring.
The power room beneath at trackside was constructed from dexion racking and asbestos sheet, all the trackside relay cases had asbestos sheet for the relays to sit on. The whole Victoria line was constructed with asbestos linings in the platform tunnels most of which was removed in station refurbishments following the Oxford Circus fire, all the original signal, PA & CCTV cables were covered in asbestos braid. On the older line many relay rooms have Marley tiles as wall and ceiling coverings, they are made of asbestos, the ceiling panels in platform canopies as at Embankment and similar stations were large asbestos sheets. It was behind the seats in Central line rolling stock as well as used in the brakes of all stocks. It really was everywhere, all the old substations that I used to work in have loads of it, I used to sign the substation asbestos registers night after night. The rail asbestos control unit(s) probably still don't have all of it recorded, I was always finding new locations that had not been reported.

Of course asbestos is one of many material hazards on the system, one seldom hears of the mercury that used to spill from the open dashpots in current on line relays that as linemen we had to top up until the relays were changed for ones without mercury contacts. The carcinogenic Denso Tape and Putty that we once used to seal temporary joints and fire block cable ducts. There were the different oils such as the fishy smelling point heater oil that stuck to the skin like napalm. Sheet materials that we used to manufacture wallboards etc from such as Tufnol, Paxolin for electrical insulation and Lexan2000 for covering open terminals and fuse bays, Plibond glue for fixing traffolyte labels to relay cases etc, Graphited penetrating oil for loosening tunnel cable bracket bolts etc. Of course we never thought too much about lead covered cable but it was hazardous to work without gloves as the body absorbs lead and then there was the old slag wool used to fill cable ducts, an early form of fibre glass and just as bad if it got into skin. There were so many hazards ..................

 

[dave1]

RT the signal I mentioned G4B was the starter from the middle platform but for the work they modified so that it read via the NB loop which was normally a shunt move. None of the levers were directly associated with the move although they would have locked to prevent such a move I think.

Where I work when something goes wrong it means lots of things are checked to ensure that it can not happen again or the chances are less likely too, however, sometimes it identifies other issues and then problems start. I think it was Kings cross on the Piccadilly line that had the problem with the driver I was living in London at the time and it made the news. I wonder how many things that are known but those in positions of authority lock them away and hope that nothing goes wrong. Of course these days people go to jail for such things.

I am sure you are right that Asbestos remains all over the underground I mentioned the Piccadilly line as I read about it all those years ago Asbestos was seen as a miracle but as we know it is very dangerous. Thank for the insight into what was what re Asbestos.  

[railtechnician]

Sept 10, 2016 14:49:23 GMT dave1 said:

RT the signal I mentioned G4B was the starter from the middle platform but for the work they modified so that it read via the NB loop which was normally a shunt move. None of the levers were directly associated with the move although they would have locked to prevent such a move I think.

Where I work when something goes wrong it means lots of things are checked to ensure that it can not happen again or the chances are less likely too, however, sometimes it identifies other issues and then problems start. I think it was Kings cross on the Piccadilly line that had the problem with the driver I was living in London at the time and it made the news. I wonder how many things that are known but those in positions of authority lock them away and hope that nothing goes wrong. Of course these days people go to jail for such things.

I am sure you are right that Asbestos remains all over the underground I mentioned the Piccadilly line as I read about it all those years ago Asbestos was seen as a miracle but as we know it is very dangerous. Thank for the insight into what was what re Asbestos.  

Dave,

The incident at Kings Cross was of course on the Picc, I have no idea why I said Vic!

I had always wondered why FRLs at least were not featured everywhere where it was possible to drive a train away in the wrong direction because there were no facing signals at the back end of a train. My thought is that such was a rare event and not deemed to be an unacceptable risk until a succession of events occurred culminating in what at the time was ISTR described as a fortunate near miss because it had the potential to be so deadly. Of course one of the problems of mitigating such incidents is not the initial cost of installation but the ongoing cost of maintenance thereafter. When resignalling works etc took place it was practice to install temporary radio and/or telephone communication circuits between IMRs and tunnel signal locations, crossovers etc to enable effective communications on signal changeovers and recommissioning between the external response test teams and the commissioning engineer. The reason for withdrawing such facilities (after each changeover we would recover and re-drum the temporary one pair telephone cables or twisted pair green/black jumper wires) was given for exactly that reason when as a young wireman I posed the question. Indeed the Golders Green changeover had several circuits all of which had to be recovered after the changeover.

As for locking away the facts relating to incidents I have no doubt that some reports were so treated in the distant past. Of course that would've been an offence for decades now under the RIDDOR legislation that make it incumbent upon those running the company to ensure that all life threatening and/or dangerous events are properly reported to the appropriate authorities.


 

[railtechnician]

Dave,
Make no mistake, making the Northbound road bi-directional GG to Hampstead was no small task. Running S/B from G4B a S/B train had to pass N/B signals G39/G40/RG38, A155/RG39, GX1541/R155, A154/R1541, A152, A150/R152, R150 to reach temporary S/B running signal 600 then pass N/B signal S148 and presumably pass 9 S/B shunt at danger (it may have been temporarily taken out of service by collaring the lever, covering the disc and pegging the trainstop for the duration of single track working) to take the route over 6 crossover then following existing S/B homes 8/R7, and 7 passing the reversing shunt stick 4 into the S/B platform. All the N/B running signals trainstops would have required releasing for a S/B train.

As you may have gathered I have found in my notes the original comms drawing showing the temporary radio and telephone communications used on both changeovers i.e. to effect single track working and then to reinstate two track working. The communications lines/areas are overlayed on four pages of track diagram showing the area from GG platforms to Hampstead platforms. There are five telephone signal communication circuits designated Red, Blue, Green, Brown and Black to the various signal locations affected by the resignalling on both changeovers. The GG platform area to the south end of the N/B loop were covered by radio from the North IMR.

The print I have was obviously a photocopy issued to one of the supervisors on the second changeover so was somewhat faded to begin with, the four pages being sellotaped together in serial fashion at the time. Over time the sellotape dried up and I peeled it off when it had almost fallen off, the edges of the pages having heavy yellow staining from the glue in the tape. Considering that I have kept these pages out of direct light for almost 40 years they have survived remarkably well unlike other photocopies of a similar age which are now little more than grubby blank pages.

I have no idea how the GG to Hampstead area looked in its final years before the more recent change of signalling system so I had nothing to compare the print to although I believe I have correctly identified all the signals mentioned above. It looks as though a temporary S/B signal was installed at the south end of the N/B loop and that does appear to be 48 that you mentioned. There appears to be an undesignated temporary S/B auto stick at the junction of 152B/152A tracks but apart from that there are no other S/B sticks shown between 48 and 600.

Edit: On reflection and in daylight what I thought to be "an undesignated temporary S/B auto stick at the junction of 152B/152A tracks" is in fact not that at all but the faded coupling of red & brown telephone circuits on the first changeover.

With regard to your comment "I am almost sure that they would not have altered the locking as such, it would have been easier to change the machine
" I'm not sure what you mean by that!

One lever, 4, controlled the southbound shunt (4 routes, apparently N/B loop, 24,25 & 27 roads) and running (1 route S/B main) routes from the middle platform. For single N/B road working the running route would've been disconnected and the shunt route 4 would've become the running route. Without seeing the bookwiring it would be difficult to say exactly what was done but the shunt route 4 signal selection would've been rewired as required to clear G4B to N/B Loop requiring 17,19,22,23 W's locked normal, 18 & 20 W's locked reverse and G33 trainstop released. That may or may not have required changes to the mechanical locking.

For spare lever 48 there was not just the question of locking 29W reverse but also of releasing all the trainstops of the N/B signals that had to be passed, each one requiring a separate lever band RB contact and track circuit detected down.

It looks as though a single relay was provided as 148^ABC.150.152^AB TP to detect the S/B route in the selection of G48.

Of course I can do no more than speculate from the track diagram, the definitive answers would be possible to deduce in the GG bookwiring.
 

[dave1]

RT thank you very much for such a first class answer so much detail and I am glad you found your notes of so many years ago and all I can say is I find it fascinating. You have described something in such great detail  and from faded paperwork. As far as I know the layout at Golders Green remains the same as it was all those years ago. 

My comment on the locking being altered was it would have been a big job to do such a thing as the signals/points all being together? or perhaps I am just talking what comes out and does not make sense due to not fully understanding mechanical locking, I am sure that locking alterations can be done but for such a short time would it be worth doing although now days it would be about saving cost's. Lever 4 and the shunt side being used now makes sense when locking at the diagram and it may have misled me re the locking. The shunt signal 9's at Hampstead was changed to a colour light and this was also the slot for 48's at Golders Green.

Now I know what you said about the pages being faded etc but I would be grateful if you could put the pages on the forum? I know you are a busy person and you must have better things to do but its just a long shot so fingers crossed.

Dave

[railtechnician]

Sept 12, 2016 17:39:31 GMT dave1 said:

RT thank you very much for such a first class answer so much detail and I am glad you found your notes of so many years ago and all I can say is I find it fascinating. You have described something in such great detail  and from faded paperwork. As far as I know the layout at Golders Green remains the same as it was all those years ago. 

My comment on the locking being altered was it would have been a big job to do such a thing as the signals/points all being together? or perhaps I am just talking what comes out and does not make sense due to not fully understanding mechanical locking, I am sure that locking alterations can be done but for such a short time would it be worth doing although now days it would be about saving cost's. Lever 4 and the shunt side being used now makes sense when locking at the diagram and it may have misled me re the locking. The shunt signal 9's at Hampstead was changed to a colour light and this was also the slot for 48's at Golders Green.

Now I know what you said about the pages being faded etc but I would be grateful if you could put the pages on the forum? I know you are a busy person and you must have better things to do but its just a long shot so fingers crossed.

Dave

Dave,

If the mechanical locking had to be altered the Whitechapel New Works locking fitter (Frank Chewitt god rest his soul) would have done that. ISTR he was on site but this was one of my very earliest jobs in an IMR and I was just a wireman with little knowledge of anything much beyond what I had done in my first year on the job, i.e. labouring, running cable and making on a few ends to relay tops and fuse bays. It was not until months later when I was on the Picc at Arsenal that I was chucked in the deep end when the chargehand went sick and I was asked to take over the gang and carry on with the changeover prep work that I had access to the prints and was able to take a proper interest in auto signalling, controlled signalling was still way off in the future!

There is nothing on my faded prints to indicate that 9 was changed to a colour light although it makes perfect sense, I had overlooked it remaining in use for single track working as (1) it was a shunt stick and (2) the designation of the added southbound stick, 600, which made me think it had been substituted for 9 albeit at the northern end of D track.
The selection of G48 then would perhaps have been as simple as slot 9, 29W reversed, 148ABC.150.152AB TP. However, as I mentioned all the N/B signal trainstops in the route would have to be released to prevent a S/B train being back tripped and the only guarantee of that, apart from wiring the necessary trainstop release circuits, would be to move each and every one of them to the blockjoint ahead. I think I can recall that the trainstops were HT types although they may have been LER 'long toms' but either way they were wired in 1/064 single lead covered cables run through 'chocolates' rather than moulded ribbed 'snakes'. I can certainly recall the mechanical fitters installing new trainstops but I cannot recall whether this was prior to single track working or subsequently as part of the resignalling that we were running new cables for when the blue asbestos was discovered.

One other point from my faded prints is that S148 has a line through it and written beside it is 39A which suggests to me that G39 lever was possibly rewired such that it controlled S148 although it makes little sense as S148 is north of 6W. I have yet to give that further thought!

I'll see what I can do about posting my faded old prints, I'll probably have to jiggle with scanner settings to get four reasonably legible pages.  

Edit:
Okay so having gone away to do something else for 25 minutes I had a Eureka moment! It would make no sense at all to shift all those N/B auto tunnel trainstops so that they could be released for S/B trains, the simple answer must've been to take them out of commission, i.e. sack over all the heads and peg all the trainstops. Thus running N/B there would only be Hampstead 2 starter, G39A outer home, GX1541, A155, G39B (relabelled G39) inner home although the trainstops for all those signals would still have had to be moved forward to the blockjoints for trainstop release purposes.
 

[dave1]

RT yet again another excellent reply the more I think about it I am sure they must have been able to do some sort of alteration to the locking providing it was not a big job. The way you have put about the selection for 4B is really great although I don't fully understand signalling this is making me think more.



Your Eureka moment is absolutely fantastic thank you, just shows after all these years what you can come up with, I went to see someone who has the yellow peril for this and the signals going south from Golders Green are 4B 22 road then 48 NB loop (slotted by 9 at Hampstead) then 900 then 9 before going over the crossover to Hampstead SB. Going NB from Hampstead 2 then 39A which was 148 then 39B which was just 39.



Seeing those old prints would be priceless I hope you can do something.



Dave

[railtechnician]

Sept 13, 2016 17:30:32 GMT dave1 said:

RT yet again another excellent reply the more I think about it I am sure they must have been able to do some sort of alteration to the locking providing it was not a big job. The way you have put about the selection for 4B is really great although I don't fully understand signalling this is making me think more.



Your Eureka moment is absolutely fantastic thank you, just shows after all these years what you can come up with, I went to see someone who has the yellow peril for this and the signals going south from Golders Green are 4B 22 road then 48 NB loop (slotted by 9 at Hampstead) then 900 then 9 before going over the crossover to Hampstead SB. Going NB from Hampstead 2 then 39A which was 148 then 39B which was just 39.



Seeing those old prints would be priceless I hope you can do something.



Dave

Dave,

I had wondered if GX1541 and A155 would've been taken out of commission, obviously they were and I expect some form of speed restriction would have applied approaching Golders Green with no signals between G39A and G39B. 


Also the 600 designation that I thought I saw on my faded drawing makes sense as 900 and would've been a clue to knowing that 9 would've become a colour light signal. Unfortunately the 9 in 900 cannot be seen well because the first digit is part hidden in a darkened crease where two pages were sellotaped together, the designation is feint and I misread it as 600 !

This morning I scanned the four pages but had to make seven pages as these old drawings are foolscap and my scanner does A4 or the slightly larger Letter page but chops more than an inch off the drawings. I had to darken them all to see anything more than shadows as scanned images. The next task will unfortunately be to optimise them because uploads here are limited to 1Mb each and each of the seven pages is currently between 6Mb and 7Mb.

Right now I am up to my neck in genealogy research and I also need to cook dinner. I'm not sure how good the optimised pages will be so I may have to play around with them to get acceptable images that comply with the upload limits. I'll see if I get get them up by sometime tomorrow, if not it may not happen before the weekend as I have appointments away from home from tomorrow until Sunday. 
 

[railtechnician]

Dave,

There are four sheets but as they were foolscap I had to scan the first three twice to grab the whole image so here is sheet 1

[railtechnician]

Dave,

Sheet 2

[railtechnician]

Dave,

Sheets 3 & 4

[dave1]

Sept 14, 2016 2:56:47 GMT railtechnician said:

Dave,

There are four sheets but as they were foolscap I had to scan the first three twice to grab the whole image so here is sheet 1

RT Many thanks for putting the scans on very interesting and like you said from all those years ago they have survived very well.

Dave