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Post by hellocontrol on Sept 14, 2014 13:51:35 GMT
Just came across this North Weald. It mentions about the starter at Ongar being controlled by Programme Machine! I thought it all came under Epping when North Weald box closed.
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Post by GentlemanJim on Sept 14, 2014 18:58:11 GMT
Just came across this North Weald. It mentions about the starter at Ongar being controlled by Programme Machine! I thought it all came under Epping when North Weald box closed. Programme machine -Human- Brain- Epping. Yep, Epping Lever No.1 was a permission lever, I'll dig out the picture and post it.
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Post by hellocontrol on Sept 15, 2014 15:16:27 GMT
GJ That will be good look forward to seeing the photo. Now that makes me think the starter at Ongar was LX21 in it's last days so Epping lever 1 was interlocked and provided all was in order LX21 cleared so how did this signal work? As there was no lever for it.
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Post by railtechnician on Sept 16, 2014 5:53:46 GMT
GJ That will be good look forward to seeing the photo. Now that makes me think the starter at Ongar was LX21 in it's last days so Epping lever 1 was interlocked and provided all was in order LX21 cleared so how did this signal work? As there was no lever for it. Surely you have just answered your own question! "Epping lever 1 was interlocked and provided all was in order LX21 cleared" Signal levers are no more required than release levers or any other kind when an auto mode of some kind exists but are convenient for human intervention. Circuitry is arranged as required to complete a signal selection if all the necessary conditions are met. Thus king levers on unmanned frames enabled signal levers to be automatically restroked and in IMRs failure conditions automatically operated the release lever except at sites like Charing Cross Jubilee where the release JR circuit was fed directly as all 12 levers on the frame were used for points and signals. I don't know what the circuitry would've have looked like in detail, no two sites anywhere on the network were alike one way or another. As for programme machines, there never were any at Heathrow T123 but the signal operators at Earls Court believed that there were three there, 'they' were in fact an HP main and standby computers front ended by two PCs.
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Post by hellocontrol on Sept 16, 2014 20:44:05 GMT
RT I agree with you when I read what I had put but then I thought of when the box was open at North Weald 21 lever was the only one that had to be operated (after the loop had gone). I also thought if it was a single line why have the starter at Ongar after all the crew knew what time they should depart. The last thing I thought was why have the permission lever at Epping when the branch was track circuited so if all was working like it should no signals could be cleared and the train was it had left Ongar there were homes at Epping protecting the platforms etc.
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Post by railtechnician on Sept 17, 2014 5:20:02 GMT
RT I agree with you when I read what I had put but then I thought of when the box was open at North Weald 21 lever was the only one that had to be operated (after the loop had gone). I also thought if it was a single line why have the starter at Ongar after all the crew knew what time they should depart. The last thing I thought was why have the permission lever at Epping when the branch was track circuited so if all was working like it should no signals could be cleared and the train was it had left Ongar there were homes at Epping protecting the platforms etc. The only way to know the 'whys' and 'wherefores' would be to see the signal bookwiring and strip prints. Seeing the circuitry usually brings clarity where something is not quite understood. I would say that it is custom and practice to have a starting signal at every platform as a means to hold a train. Even Aldwych had a starter, A1002 as I recall, a place where one would almost certainly never expect another train to be on the branch. I can imagine all sorts of reasons why it might be necessary to hold a train at Ongar but at the end of the day it could simply at the behest of the Railway Inspectorate.
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Post by hellocontrol on Sept 17, 2014 6:30:05 GMT
RT I agree with you when I read what I had put but then I thought of when the box was open at North Weald 21 lever was the only one that had to be operated (after the loop had gone). I also thought if it was a single line why have the starter at Ongar after all the crew knew what time they should depart. The last thing I thought was why have the permission lever at Epping when the branch was track circuited so if all was working like it should no signals could be cleared and the train was it had left Ongar there were homes at Epping protecting the platforms etc. The only way to know the 'whys' and 'wherefores' would be to see the signal bookwiring and strip prints. Seeing the circuitry usually brings clarity where something is not quite understood. I would say that it is custom and practice to have a starting signal at every platform as a means to hold a train. Even Aldwych had a starter, A1002 as I recall, a place where one would almost certainly never expect another train to be on the branch. I can imagine all sorts of reasons why it might be necessary to hold a train at Ongar but at the end of the day it could simply at the behest of the Railway Inspectorate. The Railway Inspectorate had many dealings with them and like you say if they wanted it that way then that was it. I worked on the Aldwych branch and there was never a starter the signal you refer to was coming into the platform just inside the tunnel. The only time there was starters was 1907-1931 IIRC.
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Post by GentlemanJim on Sept 17, 2014 9:49:39 GMT
Permission Lever in Epping Cabin. Attachments:
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Post by railtechnician on Sept 17, 2014 10:03:25 GMT
The only way to know the 'whys' and 'wherefores' would be to see the signal bookwiring and strip prints. Seeing the circuitry usually brings clarity where something is not quite understood. I would say that it is custom and practice to have a starting signal at every platform as a means to hold a train. Even Aldwych had a starter, A1002 as I recall, a place where one would almost certainly never expect another train to be on the branch. I can imagine all sorts of reasons why it might be necessary to hold a train at Ongar but at the end of the day it could simply at the behest of the Railway Inspectorate. The Railway Inspectorate had many dealings with them and like you say if they wanted it that way then that was it. I worked on the Aldwych branch and there was never a starter the signal you refer to was coming into the platform just inside the tunnel. The only time there was starters was 1907-1931 IIRC. You're correct of course, I got the number wrong, I meant A1001 and I know its down the pipe closer to Holborn. Both A1001 (think of it as an advanced starter) and A1002 are of course homes but the point I was attempting to make was that it was possible to hold a train away from Holborn in the same way that the shuttle could be held away from Epping. It's a long time since I saw the bookwiring for the Aldwych branch but I recall A1001 and A1002 as a standalone auto signalling setup in what was otherwise the Holborn controlled area. The two auto sticks signalling no more than a single train in the branch but that would not prevent a train from also sitting in the branch platform at Holborn IIRC.
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Post by hellocontrol on Sept 17, 2014 12:10:59 GMT
Permission Lever in Epping Cabin. GJ thanks for that very interesting I see it say's Epping-North Weald no mention of Ongar so that did not alter it after North Weald closed.
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drico
Station Inspector
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Posts: 202
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Post by drico on Sept 17, 2014 14:29:29 GMT
Permission Lever in Epping Cabin. GJ thanks for that very interesting Isee it say's Epping-North Weald no mention of Ongar so that did not alter it after North Weald closed. Ongar signal box closed on 23rd March 1969, can any one tell us when North Weald signal box closed ? When Epping Cabin opened on 14th August 1949, lever No 1 in Epping was called a Direction lever.
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Post by hellocontrol on Sept 17, 2014 15:39:28 GMT
That's interesting lever 1 went from direction lever to permission lever, would that have been due to North Weald being in between Epping and Ongar?
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drico
Station Inspector
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Posts: 202
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Post by drico on Sept 17, 2014 16:55:44 GMT
No. 1 lever at Epping became a Permission Lever on 17th November 1957. This was when the Epping - Ongar line was electrified.
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Post by hellocontrol on Sept 17, 2014 17:21:57 GMT
Thanks for that did the same or something similar happen at Ongar?
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drico
Station Inspector
Thank you driver, off clips.
Posts: 202
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Post by drico on Sept 17, 2014 17:47:54 GMT
Lever No. 21 in North Weald cabin was Permission Lever for the section to Ongar.
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