New Contactless Payment system - a warning for the unwary

[hangerlanejn]

I am of an age where I carry a Freedom Pass. Yesterday evening I used it as usual to validate a bus journey. This afternoon, when checking my bank account online I found that I had been charged £1.40 for the privilege.

On going to the TfL website I found that the new Contactless Payment system had been introduced - there was nothing on the bus to indicate this. The website says that if one presents an Oyster card (the Freedom Pass is a type of Oyster card) and there is a credit or debit card in the vicinity of the reader at the time, then the reader will reject both cards. This did not happen last night. Even though the Debit card was nowhere near the reader and the Freedom Pass was pressed up against the reader, it still took the debit card in preference to the Pass.

I have complained to TfL via the website, asking for a refund, but though I would flag up the problem on here to avoid anyone else falling into the same trap.

Russell Maiden.

[Nortube]

Thanks for the warning.

I don't have a contactless card and don't want one, but it seems that banks are determined to force them onto people as it is in the bank's own interest, not their customers. I like being in control and know when I'm making a payment, not run the risk of having money deducted just by walking past somewhere and then having to argue it out with the company or the bank.

[class345]

Personally, I love my contactless card, I don't like to carry cash on me, and used to get through a debit card every 3-6 months!

[Deleted]

I wonder how long it'll be before scammers manage to come up with a skimming device letting then just walk past you while taking your money. All wireless of course.

[Nortube]

I think they have already, or at least it's been experimented with. The banks won't compensate you and they'll say it's your fault because you didn't have the card in a lead-lined wallet!

[railtechnician]

I wondered how long it would be before we began to see crossposting here from DD ! TBH I would rather not see identical posts in both places.

However, as the OP has crossposted his DD posting I am crossposting my DD response! 

It is absolutely outrageous to foist such technology upon the travelling public. Oyster suffered many problems when it was first introduced and I would not believe anyone who suggested that it didn't still have issues from time to time. It may be pretty good these days but is not yet an 'exact' science. Contactless debit card transactions will in my view create even more headaches. There have been reports of contactless cards being debited incorrectly in retail outlets although the banks try to play down such issues as they have been pushing the technology for no other reason I can see than creating more business for themselves and greater profits. I see TfL doing the same thing by forcing the unsuspecting and predominantly trusting travelling public to use what I believe to be an unsafe method of payment as far as the payee is concerned. 

The test should be that if the card readers cannot positively discriminate between two cards, an Oyster and a Bank card, presented simultaneously then it should be unlawful to use it! I imagine the scammers just can't wait for this to be rolled out, travellers have been enticed into using Oyster but I fear they are being trapped into Contactless direct debit. I would advise travellers to leave their contactless cards at home or to ask the bank to change them for the old fashioned variety! However, I think the banks will be reluctant to turn the clock back unless enough customers complain as they did to prevent the end of cheque usage. I imagine trying to prove that a Contactless debit transaction was unwarranted will be a nightmare and I predict that it will lead to misery for thousands!

[hangerlanejn]

railtechnician - I would agree that crossposting is not ideal. However, the aim of my post(s) was to flag up the problem I encountered to as wide an audience as possible. I imagine there may be quite a few others yet to find that they have been debited without their knowledge as they may not yet have received or otherwise checked their bank statement (physical or electronic).

[railtechnician]

Mar 30, 2013 8:35:05 GMT hangerlanejn said:

railtechnician - I would agree that crossposting is not ideal. However, the aim of my post(s) was to flag up the problem I encountered to as wide an audience as possible. I imagine there may be quite a few others yet to find that they have been debited without their knowledge as they may not yet have received or otherwise checked their bank statement (physical or electronic).

I agree that the issue is worthy and deserves a wide audience, my comment is more recognition of the fact that this place is not DD and I hope it is not going to become a clone.

That said I regard this place as the more technical place and if anyone has more to say about the actual technology involved that is the angle I would prefer to see discussed here although it is only one opinion. From a technical viewpoint having been involved in installing and commissioning parts of the original UTS system and maintaining the communications between the various elements I am interested in the current technology which all moved on AFAIK when Oyster was introduced, all the original PDP11 station computers and operations centre computers having been replaced I believe at least 10 years ago.

[Nortube]

I agree with both of you

As a guest, I normally skim the Recent Topics in the DD forum each day just to see what's going n in the world, and have done so for the past year, together with another couple of forums. It is inevitable that people may be members / guests in several forums where the interests are similar. It's also inevitable that there will be similar posts where the discussion is about a topic that is in the news. I don't start any new threads based on what I see mentioned as a topic in DD or elsewhere, but it's quite possible that I might start a thread based on something I've seen in the news websites. As it's a current topic, it's inevitable that members in other groups will also pick up the same story on the news site and start their topic. I've created a thread about something I've read, then found that the DD site had a post on their forum before I did mine on this forum (e.g. Harry Beck, which I'd seen on the BBC site and linked). Likewise I've created a thread and then seen that DD has a similar thread an hour later. It's just the way things go.

However, I don't agree with a person cross posting the same thing in different forums because too much of it then makes the forums much of a muchness. There are exceptions to this. One is where a forum may have a different viewer base and thus the response to a post may give different feedback, in which case the poster may get a different point of view from two separate forums and this would justify the crossposting. Another exception is like the one from hangerlanejn where the topic is one that it's important that everybody should be aware of. (I must have missed hangerlanejn's post on DD because I never saw it, unless it was in an existing topic about something else that I had skipped!).


I see the London's Transport Forum as a forum with it's own individuality and wouldn't like it to just be a clone of any other forum. After all, this forum is not intended to be in competition with any other and I would like to think it's different from others. In the end, members make a forum and generally mould the direction in which a forum goes. railtechician sees this as a more technical place. Perhaps it is, at least for the moment. If it remains so will depend on members' posts. I think that there are many people around who are very interested in the technical side of things and how things work (whether it's trains, planes, or whatever) but can't always find the general sort of information they're looking for. I don't see why a forum cannot provide some of the information (as long as it's not top secret and doesn't infringe any copyright) and answer any specific questions a member might have.

[hangerlanejn]

Nortube, Thanks for that. You may have missed my DD posting because I have a different "name" on that site - it is "rdm". To reiterate, the only reason I crossposted is as given to Railtechnician. I much appreciate the more measured approach and depth of feedback available on this new Forum and would not wish to compromise that. On the topic under discussion I have also raised the issue on my local London Borough's forum.

[Nortube]

I didn't see the topic at all - I'll have to look more closely!

[hangerlanejn]

It is in the "Rant" area as there is no bus related board on DD.

I'm likely to be offline for the next week so apologies in advance for any delayed responses.

[GentlemanJim]

I don't have a problem with cross posting as long as it's deemed important enough for others to be made aware of, this one in my book does warrant reposting as this problem could be happening to others who might not realise it.

What I would object to would be mundane posts.

It's nice to know that LTF is being looked at differently to other forums, that was the whole idea and if LTF attracts members from other forums then that can only be a good thing.

I believe eventually LTF will have a membership base from all grades and walks of life therefore enabling LTF to be not only a discussion forum but a site where people can ask a question and trust the answer.

We can only achieve our aims by being independent, open and honest and not the puppet of any organisation.