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LTM.
Jun 12, 2015 8:18:46 GMT
Post by GentlemanJim on Jun 12, 2015 8:18:46 GMT
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Post by dave1 on Jun 12, 2015 11:25:16 GMT
On twitter there is a photo of the motor car 5721 taken at Acton this morning, so it must be another car but it sure has upset a few people. I hated C stock horrible trains. |
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LTM.
Jun 12, 2015 18:01:10 GMT
Post by railtechnician on Jun 12, 2015 18:01:10 GMT
It's not surprising really, preservation costs money and the larger the number of exhibits the more it costs to store and maintain them. They only practical way to preserve trains is to keep them in service on a preserved railway, it's a shame that LTM doesn't have one.
Personally I am unconcerned about rolling stock when so much signal, electrical and communications engineering history has not been preserved. The last time I visited the LTM, circa 2005, I was quite appalled at the lack of engineering exhibits.
As for Acton Depot Museum that seemed to be top heavy with bus exhibits and signage while much of what would interest me lay under tarpaulins or in storage.
As for C stock a train is a train is a train and I spent a lot of time travelling on them in my earliest years with LT on day shift. I didn't mind them at all and much preferred them to most of the other stocks around in the 1970s. My all time favourite stock is 73 stock but then I am biassed having worked on the Picc on and off in four decades and having been a Picc lineman.
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LTM.
Jun 14, 2015 12:46:59 GMT
Post by GentlemanJim on Jun 14, 2015 12:46:59 GMT
It's not surprising really, preservation costs money and the larger the number of exhibits the more it costs to store and maintain them. They only practical way to preserve trains is to keep them in service on a preserved railway, it's a shame that LTM doesn't have one. Personally I am unconcerned about rolling stock when so much signal, electrical and communications engineering history has not been preserved. The last time I visited the LTM, circa 2005, I was quite appalled at the lack of engineering exhibits. As for Acton Depot Museum that seemed to be top heavy with bus exhibits and signage while much of what would interest me lay under tarpaulins or in storage. As for C stock a train is a train is a train and I spent a lot of time travelling on them in my earliest years with LT on day shift. I didn't mind them at all and much preferred them to most of the other stocks around in the 1970s. My all time favourite stock is 73 stock but then I am biassed having worked on the Picc on and off in four decades and having been a Picc lineman. A few 'humble pies' being munched haha.
LTM and 99.9% of most museums lack space and finance to display the whole picture from start to present and the future. Personally I can't see the point of keeping just one single car from a train, usually a DM. It's not ever going to go anywhere or make the sounds or provide the smells of a working example, stuffed and mounted is not what it should be like.
The LTM in particular missed the boat (should that be train) when it came to the closure of the Epping-Ongar branch of the Central Line, what a fantastic place it could have been for LTM to show off there rolling stock and signalling, an opportunity surely missed?
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LTM.
Jun 14, 2015 15:54:04 GMT
Post by hellocontrol on Jun 14, 2015 15:54:04 GMT
It's not surprising really, preservation costs money and the larger the number of exhibits the more it costs to store and maintain them. They only practical way to preserve trains is to keep them in service on a preserved railway, it's a shame that LTM doesn't have one. Personally I am unconcerned about rolling stock when so much signal, electrical and communications engineering history has not been preserved. The last time I visited the LTM, circa 2005, I was quite appalled at the lack of engineering exhibits. As for Acton Depot Museum that seemed to be top heavy with bus exhibits and signage while much of what would interest me lay under tarpaulins or in storage. As for C stock a train is a train is a train and I spent a lot of time travelling on them in my earliest years with LT on day shift. I didn't mind them at all and much preferred them to most of the other stocks around in the 1970s. My all time favourite stock is 73 stock but then I am biassed having worked on the Picc on and off in four decades and having been a Picc lineman. RT, The costs for preserving various items does not come cheap but I think they have bitten more than they can chew I used to go to the Acton museum quite a lot but all the volunteers were into buses so it was more or less a one man band, don't get me wrong old buses are also required to be saved and kept available they have loads at the Covent Garden museum. I think the problem is they now try to save everything and they must be running out of room when you consider that it includes everything paper as well. I seem to remember that they are legally bound to do so. I think Noah's ark comes to mind two of everything or in their case as many as possible. |
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LTM.
Jun 14, 2015 15:59:32 GMT
Post by hellocontrol on Jun 14, 2015 15:59:32 GMT
It's not surprising really, preservation costs money and the larger the number of exhibits the more it costs to store and maintain them. They only practical way to preserve trains is to keep them in service on a preserved railway, it's a shame that LTM doesn't have one. Personally I am unconcerned about rolling stock when so much signal, electrical and communications engineering history has not been preserved. The last time I visited the LTM, circa 2005, I was quite appalled at the lack of engineering exhibits. As for Acton Depot Museum that seemed to be top heavy with bus exhibits and signage while much of what would interest me lay under tarpaulins or in storage. As for C stock a train is a train is a train and I spent a lot of time travelling on them in my earliest years with LT on day shift. I didn't mind them at all and much preferred them to most of the other stocks around in the 1970s. My all time favourite stock is 73 stock but then I am biassed having worked on the Picc on and off in four decades and having been a Picc lineman. A few 'humble pies' being munched haha.
LTM and 99.9% of most museums lack space and finance to display the whole picture from start to present and the future. Personally I can't see the point of keeping just one single car from a train, usually a DM. It's not ever going to go anywhere or make the sounds or provide the smells of a working example, stuffed and mounted is not what it should be like.
The LTM in particular missed the boat (should that be train) when it came to the closure of the Epping-Ongar branch of the Central Line, what a fantastic place it could have been for LTM to show off there rolling stock and signalling, an opportunity surely missed?
GJ, I think there is a lack of foresight or whatever as they could have loads of working items. I agree with you they could have taken over the Epping-Ongar branch and run it and with all the exhibits it would have been first class. They have Loughton signal box currently slowly rotting away but as I said up thread you have to have the people so if they are only in to buses then and the other thing is the background of the volunteers those that have got the frames working at Acton are mostly ex signal department. |
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LTM.
Jun 14, 2015 19:54:32 GMT
Post by epping on Jun 14, 2015 19:54:32 GMT
A few 'humble pies' being munched haha.
LTM and 99.9% of most museums lack space and finance to display the whole picture from start to present and the future. Personally I can't see the point of keeping just one single car from a train, usually a DM. It's not ever going to go anywhere or make the sounds or provide the smells of a working example, stuffed and mounted is not what it should be like.
The LTM in particular missed the boat (should that be train) when it came to the closure of the Epping-Ongar branch of the Central Line, what a fantastic place it could have been for LTM to show off there rolling stock and signalling, an opportunity surely missed?
GJ, I think there is a lack of foresight or whatever as they could have loads of working items. I agree with you they could have taken over the Epping-Ongar branch and run it and with all the exhibits it would have been first class. They have Loughton signal box currently slowly rotting away but as I said up thread you have to have the people so if they are only in to buses then and the other thing is the background of the volunteers those that have got the frames working at Acton are mostly ex signal department. I also followed that thread on FB, talk about getting ones knickers in a twist without truly knowing the facts, members leaving the Friends, individuals being named as the culprits of all the LTM's current ills.... laughable really.
Preservation can be a tricky business whether it be the LTM or our little band at Epping Signal Cabin. We don't have a regular income or a backer but rely on the goodwill and generosity of our volunteers to provide there time, expertise and equipment that will eventually get the job done. Donations are always welcome but what we are doing is quite unique and not everybody's cup of tea so what cash we do get is spent wisely and prioritised in job importance, you can't put a value on volunteers..... priceless!
Loughton Cabin is an absolute disgrace, the only thing it has going for it is it has it's frame, unlike Epping. Epping has a Frame stored in the Relay Room which will be rebuilt in the Operating Room once all the work in there has been completed, we're getting there slowly.
We have L11 at Epping which of course won't be going anywhere fast but....... we can get the lights on and the compressor ticking over relatively easy, that's the plan. There will also be a display of lineside equipment which is coming together nicely, it will be compact but presentable.
Totally agree that LTM missed the train on the Ongar Branch, crazy really.
Our website was recently updated www.eppingsignalcabim.com have a look and if you like what you see come and join us, no politics in our group just free Bacon sarnies on a Sunday.
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LTM.
Jun 15, 2015 2:34:49 GMT
Post by railtechnician on Jun 15, 2015 2:34:49 GMT
Yes the Ongar branch would've been a great working museum site. Had I not moved out of North London when I retired in 2005 I would have been a willing signal and communications volunteer but these days it is far too far away from my rural home in greater Lincoln in both time and the cost of motoring and any thought of using public transport is a non-starter for time and other considerations.
Had I not taken early retirement I might well have been a volunteer at Acton Depot Museum as I worked out of Bollo House just over the road and doing a couple of hours a couple of evenings a week before starting night shift would not have been too taxing.
As for buses in preservation LT/LU had plenty of empty garage space at one time where it could have put them on display leaving Acton depot museum for rail exhibits such as a complete IMR, Power Room, Signal Cabin and Relay Room, Strowger telephone exchange, RS and drum TD rooms controlling a full size compressed section of track to show points and signals in operation and also a model railway to demonstrate train operations and communications. Such exhibits would be much the same as used to exist in the Earls Court and original Acton Works signal schools and I believe that Acton Depot Museum holds the necessary equipment in storage but of course does not have the room to create such working exhibits.
I recently saw some images taken at EOR and am amazed at just how much rolling stock seems to be there now.
I doubt that I'll ever see London again, I have no reason to go there and if I want to see former LT buses I visit Sandtoft which is only an hour away by road although not too many years ago there were quite a lot of former London Buses in service in and around Lincoln, most retaining the red livery and operated by MASS before Stagecoach took over LRCC and MASS pulled out.
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LTM.
Jun 15, 2015 11:08:35 GMT
Post by Vernon on Jun 15, 2015 11:08:35 GMT
Speaking as a person who has some inside knowledge of the signalling and communication side inside the LTM depot and a former strowger technician, I know nothing about a strowger exchange stored away inside.
The aim of the signalling team is to create live working exhibits that will stimulate the interest of the visitors.
I totally agree with what has been said here about the depot’s priority and fear for the future of the railway side of things.
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LTM.
Jun 15, 2015 15:08:04 GMT
Post by epping on Jun 15, 2015 15:08:04 GMT
Speaking as a person who has some inside knowledge of the signalling and communication side inside the LTM depot and a former strowger technician, I know nothing about a strowger exchange stored away inside. The aim of the signalling team is to create live working exhibits that will stimulate the interest of the visitors. I totally agree with what has been said here about the depot’s priority and fear for the future of the railway side of things. If you ever want a change of scenery Vernon we could do with some people with your background at Epping.
The Operating Room is coming close to being decorated, once that's done we'll be looking at moving the Lever Frame upstairs (through the floor to be exact).
If you haven't seen the website it can be found at www.eppingsignalcabin.com
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LTM.
Jun 15, 2015 15:47:46 GMT
Post by Vernon on Jun 15, 2015 15:47:46 GMT
Speaking as a person who has some inside knowledge of the signalling and communication side inside the LTM depot and a former strowger technician, I know nothing about a strowger exchange stored away inside. The aim of the signalling team is to create live working exhibits that will stimulate the interest of the visitors. I totally agree with what has been said here about the depot’s priority and fear for the future of the railway side of things. If you ever want a change of scenery Vernon we could do with some people with your background at Epping.
The Operating Room is coming close to being decorated, once that's done we'll be looking at moving the Lever Frame upstairs (through the floor to be exact).
If you haven't seen the website it can be found at www.eppingsignalcabin.com
Thanks for the offer but one venue is more than enough for me. The signalling team have a lot to do at the moment and rely on each other working together. |
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LTM.
Jun 16, 2015 10:33:35 GMT
Post by railtechnician on Jun 16, 2015 10:33:35 GMT
Speaking as a person who has some inside knowledge of the signalling and communication side inside the LTM depot and a former strowger technician, I know nothing about a strowger exchange stored away inside. The aim of the signalling team is to create live working exhibits that will stimulate the interest of the visitors. I totally agree with what has been said here about the depot’s priority and fear for the future of the railway side of things. This is interesting, speaking as a former CET with 17 years service in the telephone and later comms sections, when the Strowger exchanges were replaced by MD110 one of the maintenance executives took over the old Golders Green exchange as a store for recovered Strowger equipment. He had hoped to preserve the equipment. It was not the only location where telephone equipment was stored, Wood Lane T/T relay room had not only its decommissioned 20 line PBX rack but also another. The second PBX was the one that I had, had at South Woodford signal & comms training school (a Christmas present in 1983 as I recall) which I had installed in the old signal cabin power room for training purposes. I believe it had been recovered from one of the substations or possibly from the old Chiswick Works complex. When I relocated to a dedicated comms school in the old control room above Wood Lane substation in 1985 I took the rack with me and installed it, however, in 1986 I returned to installation work and whoever followed me in the training division replaced the PBX with a Protowire 627 electronic Mag/CB/Auto rack which at that time was in vogue, indeed I installed the same type of equipment at Farringdon signal cabin relay room during the relocation of Aldgate control to Farringdon. When I was last in Leicester Square substation circa 2004 the two 20 line PBXs, long redundant, were still in situ in mezzanine CER No1. Thus I am surprised to hear that the museum has no Strowger exhibits, it is difficult to believe that no-one managed to collect anything from the original 15 Strowger exchanges or any of the 20 line single rack uniselector PBXs. I suspect that most if not all went for scrap but almost all the phones were bagged up and sold on as far as I recall. Just before 10A Wood Lane stores closed virtually all telephone equipment that had not been drawn from stock for several months was deemed as obsolete. I was sent there with a requistion book to 'grab' anything useful to S&E at the time and anything not booked out that day went into the skip so as not to shift unwanted materials to Lillie Bridge or Acton stores. This was rather short sighted as there was still plenty of 'believed obsolete' telephone equipment in service across the combine and when I became a maintainer on the Picc line the only way to get spares for such equipment to keep control room telephones working was to buy it direct from suppliers. As engineering was downsized in readiness for external contractors to be given maintenance and installation contracts many of the local S&E comms stores were similarly emptied into skips. It seems clear that LTM saw little or none of this equipment, from the odd second hand telephone that I saw at Acton depot museum in 2004. Of course there was also all the substation tele-control equipment based around 3000 type telephone relays and type 2 uniselectors that should perhaps have been ripe for preservation when it was replaced, I don't recall seeing any of that equipment at Acton but I could be wrong. My suspicion is that the LTM emphasis is upon buses and trains and that anything else is secondary but, while buses are stand alone items (notwithstanding bus stops and shelters) trains are as nothing without all the ancillary equipment and infrastructure that supports their operation! |
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LTM.
Jun 16, 2015 11:11:52 GMT
Post by Vernon on Jun 16, 2015 11:11:52 GMT
Even if a strowger exchange did exist somewhere in storage I doubt we would be given the go ahead to re install it, plus at the moment I believe the only person at the depot with any strowger experience is myself.
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LTM.
Jun 16, 2015 18:48:51 GMT
Post by railtechnician on Jun 16, 2015 18:48:51 GMT
Even if a strowger exchange did exist somewhere in storage I doubt we would be given the go ahead to re install it, plus at the moment I believe the only person at the depot with any strowger experience is myself. What a shame, not even room for a single rack and wall space for the rectifier plant, I assume the same would go for an IMR etc so one wonders if Programme Machines are to be preserved and if so whether as static or working exhibits. An original Victoria line ticket office and/or station agent (operations) room would be great exhibits but I would not be surprised to lean that none survives now, most having gone under the UTS programme in the 1980s and the few remaining original operations rooms having been divested of their original telephone panels, PA and CCTV in the 1980s and 1990s during various upgrade works. I am pretty certain that the PIPs and associated CER equipment that I recovered went for scrap apart from the sealed relays which no doubt would've been recycled through SOS. Then there were all the original Bakerloo tunnel telephones which I recovered circa 1989 as I replaced them with Redatron instruments which were all returned to a comms manager but what became of them thereafter I never new. Most would be collectors items now, wooden 1920s instruments with brass fittings and ceramic earpieces. All the early CCTV kit probably went for scrap, the Victoria line 5x8 Rediffusion matrices and 4MHz single channel system as it was replaced by external contractors. The Picc west end original 8x12 matrices and discrete PA & CCTV remote switching circuitry which I recovered from Heathrow to Hounslow West when I installed the Texscan longline controller and BTP CCTV no doubt followed it. There is so, so much that might have been preserved but which was simply never considered. Unfortunately it seems to be the way with comms because the advances in technology seem to be exponential. Even British Telecom sold the vast majority of its preserved Strowger equipment, much of which was auctioned off into private hands and to preserved railways but over the last few years Severn Valley, East Hants and Ffestiniog railways have been selling off their Strowger and upgrading their communications systems. The Kent & East Sussex is still happily running its Strowger exchanges, the Signal Manager there keeps a good stock of spares too. Fortunately there are still plenty of Strowger exchanges to be found in the hands of private collectors, most in garden sheds, garages and I know one person who has built his own exchange building next to his house to house his several small public Strowger exchanges recovered from various sites in the UK. He has also recreated the BR ETD system which a handful of Strowger collectors are connected to and we all belong to a worldwide private telephone network boasting working Strowger and other heritage telephone systems on five continents, my own equipment being several analogue electronic PBX systems. I can certainly understand why LTM would have trouble housing signal and comms as working exhibits, I struggle to store/manage my 20 or so PBX systems and 200+ telephones and the dedicated computers that interface the active ones to VOIP in my three bedroom cottage. |
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LTM.
Jun 16, 2015 20:21:50 GMT
Post by Vernon on Jun 16, 2015 20:21:50 GMT
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