Ben
Box Boy
Posts: 65
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Post by Ben on Mar 17, 2013 2:23:49 GMT
I did once have access to journey time on the Northern as they were in 1929 (but can't find the source now sadly!), and even compared to then the journey times are slower now.
How can it be that an all singing all dancing three phase GTO traction package with electronic braking is beaten by technology from the 1910's-1930's in terms of performance? Or is it more a combination of factors such as the reduction of front-line staff, increased platform dwell times, and reduced signalling capability? Is it likely that ATO will at least see some kind of reversal in the journey time trend?
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Post by Nortube on Mar 17, 2013 13:22:08 GMT
On NR, I think the running time is increased so they don't have to pay out so much compensation due to late running and my experience of main line trains which are fast / semi-fast is that are normally early at the terminus. I can't see this being the reason on LU because the train service is different.
I think that sometimes the changes may be due to the specific service that is being run at the time. E,g, WTT14 (the 1961 timetable) has a lot more complicate off-peak service that WTT52 or the current WTT53. The running times for WTT52 and WTT53 are the same. I'll look through WTT14 later today and look at the service that was provided compared to the current timetable. I'll also look at the City & South London Railway timetable of 1916 and see how that compares with service and running times between Clapham Common and Euston.
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Post by Nortube on Mar 17, 2013 17:33:41 GMT
What was going to be a quick look at running times in the C&SLRly timetable has ended up much more detailed. As a consequences, I've put that in a separate thread on this board, but I will get back with current comparisons in this thread.
18:51 I've just added the C&SLRly running times diagram to the same post on this thread as the WTT14 and WTT52 diagrams.
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Post by Nortube on Mar 17, 2013 21:17:03 GMT
I think one of the problems today is that the Underground is probably being used by the biggest amount of people its ever had. More passengers = the chance for more delays and the dwell times at a busy station increase dramatically. The dwell time for a normal off-peak station is probably around 15 - 20 seconds.
In peak hours at stations where there is a big influx of passengers on and off the train, such as London Bridge or Bank on the Northern line, the sheer number of passengers can increase the dwell time to as much as two minutes or more. It's sods law, the more passengers on a train, the more a train struggles (probably not so bad with the newer stock) and the slower the train becomes. because the train is slower, there are bigger dwell times, the gap between trains gets bigger, which means more passengers, more delays and so on. It's a vicious circle. The newer stock should be a help and the new signalling / TBTC work are meant to improve run times because it means that trains can get closer and trains are being driven the best way possible - in theory anyway!.
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Post by Nortube on Mar 17, 2013 21:18:50 GMT
Comparing the timetables, looking at WTT14, the M-F off-peak service passing through Kennington NB in one hour is shown below:
13:00 - Morden to High Barnet via CX 13:02½ - Tooting Broadway to Golders Green via Bank 13:03 - Kennington to Edgware via CX, not stopping at Mornington Crescent 13:06 - Morden to Mill Hill via CX 13:08½ - Morden to Euston via Bank 13:09 - Kennington to Edgware via CX, not stopping at Mornington Crescent 13:12 - Morden to High Barnet via CX 13:14½ - Morden to Golders Green via Bank 13:15 - Kennington to Colindale via CX, not stopping at Mornington Crescent 13:18 - Morden to Mill Hill via CX 13:20½ - Tooting Broadway to Euston via Bank 13:21 - Kennington to Edgware via CX, not stopping at Mornington Crescent 13:24 - Morden to High Barnet via CX 13:26½ - Morden to Golders Green via Bank 13:27 - Kennington to Colindale via CX, not stopping at Mornington Crescent 13:30 - Morden to Mill Hill East via CX 13:32½ - Morden to Euston via Bank 13:33 - Kennington to Edgware via CX, not stopping at Mornington Crescent 13:36 - Morden to High Barnet via CX 13:38½ - Tooting to Golders Green via Bank 13:39 - Kennington to Colindale via CX, nor stopping at Mornington Crescent 13:42 - Morden to Mill Hill via CX 13:44½ - Morden to Euston via Bank 13:45 - Kennington to Edgware via CX, not stopping at Mornington Crescent 13:48 - Morden to High Barnet via CX 13:50½ - Morden to Golders Green via Bank 13:51 - Kennington to Colindale, not stopping at Mornington Crescent 13:54 - Morden to Mill Hill via CX 13:57 - Kennington to Edgware via CX, not stopping at Mornington Crescent 13:58½ - Tooting Broadway to Euston via Bank
This gives 30 trains an hour over a wide variety of routes Also, on the Barnet branch, there were the additional steam trains that were timetabled to run from Highbury Vale junction to East Finchley, Finchley Central, Woodside Park, Totteridge and High Barnet Goods yards, plus the goods yard and gas works at Mill Hill East, plus Edgware. A total of six trains NB and seven trains SB each direction on a weekday (I don't know where they got the extra SB train from!)
By comparison, at the same time period, WTT53 shows: Kennington to Edgware via CX - 8 trains Morden to Edgware via Bank - 8 trains Kennington to High Barnet via CX - 7 trains Morden to High Barnet via CX - 7 trains - the same amount of trains per hour, but much simpler with only four routes.
WTT14 had a 100 train peak M-F service, with a maximum 72 train service on Saturdays and a maximum 43 train service by Sunday evening. An uncoupled train which ran as a 3-car and 4-car Mill Hill -Finchley Central shuttle all day on Sundays provided a twelve minute service, with five trains an hour to / from Mill Hill. The shuttles reversed S-N via the south sidings and were counted as two trains in the total requirements.
WTT53 has a 91 train peak M-F service, with a 72 train service Saturday and Sunday. The Sunday service reducing later in the evening.
The service pattern can certainly make a lot of difference. Inevitably anywhere a train is reversed can cause problems. Years ago, trains regularly reversed at Tooting Broadway in the peak hours. It was almost as soon as one train left the siding, another was waiting to go in. It wasn't unusual in the seventies for trains in the evening peak to be blocking back as far as Stockwell because of trains reversing at Tooting Broadway or because of problems at Morden. Although extra running time is allowed in the peak, it was sometimes taking an additional 5 minutes longer to get to Morden, even longer on extra bad days. Things greatly improved when the total number of trains in service was reduced, although other timetable / route changes may have helped as well.
There have been problems where the service has been up the wall most of the day because there's very little recovery time in the timetable. Timetables that had off-peak Tooting Broadway reversers were a pain. I think it was Finchley Central / Tooting Broadway via Bank. No tea-point facilities or toilets at either end. Toilets were provided between the SB platforms at Kennington and there was a boiler on the CX platform, but it meant that the driver delayed the train to use them. Often the train was already late and the extra delay just made it worse, with the chance of the driver getting a bollocking. The sidings at Tooting used to get used as a toilet, although at least they weren't as bad as Kennington loop.
On paper, a timetable can work perfectly. However, on a timetable with very little recovery time, the effects of a delay in the morning could last all day. Also, when Tooting and Finchley Central sidings were used for booked reversing trains, it meant that they were not available to turn a late running train short. Tooting was very useful for that, especially if there was a problem at Morden causing blocking-back.
Adding a half minute extra running time in here and there can probably give a better service over all as it means that there is more chance of a delayed service getting back on time quicker. I don't know what WTT14 was like to work with, but it appears that there is very little room for leeway in the week.
On the odd occasion, physical changes can also be of benefit and reduce overall running time, even if it's only by a few seconds - the seconds add up! One example is the increased speed allowed between Kennington and Waterloo. Another example are the changes at Morden, one being the addition a crossover layout change to increase the speed of trains passing over it, another was the addition of a new signal - pop-up signal A728 which meant that the starters at Morden could clear a few seconds sooner and allow the train as far as A728.
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Post by Nortube on Mar 19, 2013 22:59:08 GMT
I've now found some more timetables and the level of service over the years is:
WTT14 June 1961 M-F 100, Sat 83, Sun 43 WTT24 Sept 1969 M-F 99, Sat 57, Sun 40 WTT25 March 1970 M-F 95, Sat 57, Sun 40 WTT41 October 1991 M-F 84, Sat 40, Sun 40 WTT53 January 2010 M-F 91, Sat 72, Sun 72
Interesting to see the changes in service levels. The early 90s were the low points, and the current timetable shows a big increase in the level for Sundays, with a lot more people (presumably) travelling on a Sunday now.
I haven't got any bank holiday timetables to compare, but I'm certain there will be big differences today with more trains and open longer in the day, especially Boxing Days.
Looking at the Special Arangements for the Royal Wedding on Wednesday 29 July 1981, they ran a 48 train service up until around 10:00, when they went to a Saturday service, whatever that was then. It was a normal weekday time start up. I can't rememebr, but I assume that it must have been a bank holiday then.
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