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Post by Nortube on Jun 7, 2017 10:43:50 GMT
The sound of the points throwing over was very useful as it was an indicator that the stick was (probably) about to drop off and it was time to go. In the days after Guards (when the sound of doors closing was an indicator the stick might be off), it served as a wake-up call or a reminder to stop reading (the Traffic Circular, obviously ) and be prepared t depart. This did sometimes catch people out, such as in the days when reversing at Colindale was frequent and the driver, hearing the points throw, would start to motor without checking the shunt was actually off. Although the shunt would normally clear as soon as the points had thrown, if there was a train in the SB platform when it was time for the train in the siding to depart, the points would usually throw, but the shunt remain on until the train departed the platform and that section was clear.
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Post by dave1 on Jun 7, 2017 17:14:08 GMT
I thought that the points were all surelock motors and that the air operated ones had been replaced. I was not in the first car but did not hear the swish of the points. Surelock points came to LUL a couple of months after I retired so I have no hands on knowledge of them but AFAIK the point machine does not 'throw' the points instantaneously but rather 'winds' them over. That being the case there would be no 'swish' (or 'bang' to frighten operating staff as the exhausting 'D' valve of a standard 4' layout did at the trackside walkway to Bollo House!). Of course it may be that the video of the surelock machine that I have viewed is of an electrically operated rather than air worked version. I believe they are still installing Surelock points although they may well be a much different model I seem to remember seeing somewhere that the M63 points worked like them as well but they are years old as they were on BR many years before LU started to use them. I don't know if there is an air version of Surelock point motors.
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Post by dave1 on Jun 7, 2017 17:15:39 GMT
The sound of the points throwing over was very useful as it was an indicator that the stick was (probably) about to drop off and it was time to go. In the days after Guards (when the sound of doors closing was an indicator the stick might be off), it served as a wake-up call or a reminder to stop reading (the Traffic Circular, obviously ) and be prepared t depart. This did sometimes catch people out, such as in the days when reversing at Colindale was frequent and the driver, hearing the points throw, would start to motor without checking the shunt was actually off. Although the shunt would normally clear as soon as the points had thrown, if there was a train in the SB platform when it was time for the train in the siding to depart, the points would usually throw, but the shunt remain on until the train departed the platform and that section was clear. I bet a lot of train staff got caught out like that. I did hear a story of a driver who got the bell and drove off and when he looked up he was going down a siding and overshot the sand drag.
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Post by railtechnician on Jun 8, 2017 12:05:48 GMT
Surelock points came to LUL a couple of months after I retired so I have no hands on knowledge of them but AFAIK the point machine does not 'throw' the points instantaneously but rather 'winds' them over. That being the case there would be no 'swish' (or 'bang' to frighten operating staff as the exhausting 'D' valve of a standard 4' layout did at the trackside walkway to Bollo House!). Of course it may be that the video of the surelock machine that I have viewed is of an electrically operated rather than air worked version. I believe they are still installing Surelock points although they may well be a much different model I seem to remember seeing somewhere that the M63 points worked like them as well but they are years old as they were on BR many years before LU started to use them. I don't know if there is an air version of Surelock point motors. Obviously I misread your initial post which seemed to indicate that surelock motors were air worked! Somewhere I have a copy of the original notes and mechanical diagrams of surelocks as supplied for use on the Jub in 2005 but I cannot find them. The notes did not contain the operating circuitry so I have no idea whether surelocks were offered with air operation. LUL had a habit of converting points used on main line railways for use on the Underground e.g. clamplocks were never designed as air worked, they were hydraulic points before modification for LUL. AFAIK chairlocks were also modified from the original French design. That said, M63 and HW1000 point machines were not modified for LUL use AFAIK. I never had anything to do with those types although I saw both in the signal school during my signal lineman training in the 1990s.
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Post by dave1 on Jun 8, 2017 15:34:11 GMT
I believe they are still installing Surelock points although they may well be a much different model I seem to remember seeing somewhere that the M63 points worked like them as well but they are years old as they were on BR many years before LU started to use them. I don't know if there is an air version of Surelock point motors. Obviously I misread your initial post which seemed to indicate that surelock motors were air worked! Somewhere I have a copy of the original notes and mechanical diagrams of surelocks as supplied for use on the Jub in 2005 but I cannot find them. The notes did not contain the operating circuitry so I have no idea whether surelocks were offered with air operation. LUL had a habit of converting points used on main line railways for use on the Underground e.g. clamplocks were never designed as air worked, they were hydraulic points before modification for LUL. AFAIK chairlocks were also modified from the original French design. That said, M63 and HW1000 point machines were not modified for LUL use AFAIK. I never had anything to do with those types although I saw both in the signal school during my signal lineman training in the 1990s. Does LU modify everything that they don't design but use? I thought the Central line points were all M63 and a number of other locations around the system have had them installed albeit a number of years ago now.
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Post by railtechnician on Jun 10, 2017 1:32:32 GMT
Obviously I misread your initial post which seemed to indicate that surelock motors were air worked! Somewhere I have a copy of the original notes and mechanical diagrams of surelocks as supplied for use on the Jub in 2005 but I cannot find them. The notes did not contain the operating circuitry so I have no idea whether surelocks were offered with air operation. LUL had a habit of converting points used on main line railways for use on the Underground e.g. clamplocks were never designed as air worked, they were hydraulic points before modification for LUL. AFAIK chairlocks were also modified from the original French design. That said, M63 and HW1000 point machines were not modified for LUL use AFAIK. I never had anything to do with those types although I saw both in the signal school during my signal lineman training in the 1990s. Does LU modify everything that they don't design but use? I thought the Central line points were all M63 and a number of other locations around the system have had them installed albeit a number of years ago now. I can't answer that as I just don't know but it does modify lots of stuff, Westinghouse safety relays are a prime example. Look closely and you will see modifications made over the years, some for safety reasons following wrong side failures but others made in the signal overhaul shops such as leaving out the spare coils, changing the bearing material etc. Modifications such as the latter caused wrong side signal failures in the early noughties and I spent many hours changing relays all over the Picc and Jub as a result. I expect the change of bearing material was made in the SOS for cost reasons without consulting the signal department with regard to signalling standards, it must've cost an absolute fortune to correct that poor decision, we were changing so many prime critical relays that SOS ran out of them so we had to resort to relay swapping within IMRs moving potentially faulty relays from prime critical circuits to less critical circuits. The affected relays were mostly DEV track relays as far as I recall and the problem was that the dodgy bearings potentially allowed them to stay UP when they should have dropped. Look closely at the DEV 3 position (WKRs) and see the weight at the front, that was a modification following a failure in which the WKR got stuck between normal and reverse, the vane somehow being trapped. Most traditional LT signalling equipment was modified over time as a result of failures or the availability of better replacement parts, air motors for points and trainstops and chairlock WLs are a good example the very heavy old variety being replaced with much lighter ones. I changed a lot of trainstop motors on the Picc when the new motors were available and WLs on several sets of chairlocks. Of course what we can say is that the heavy old signalling equipment that I first encountered in the 1970s was built to last a lifetime, I'm not so sure that modern equipment has anything like the same longevity and most is probably specified to be guaranteed to last no more than 20 years. CSDE equipment had a 20 year life specified so it should all have been replaced by now as we installed all the original kit in the early 1990s, I did the H&C from Hammersmith all the way to Barking and some of the District sites in the central area.
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Post by fivethirtytwo on Jun 17, 2017 18:03:39 GMT
dave1, all points at Golders Green are still air operated, there are no electric points at Golders. I thought that the points were all surelock motors and that the air operated ones had been replaced. I was not in the first car but did not hear the swish of the points. I thought you were talking about all the points on the main at Golders Green. If you're referring to the points in Golders Green depot (the ones labelled D11, D12, D13 etc), they might be electric, but they're not surelock points. Here's a photo of surelocks. The points in the depot look like the ones on the other side of the walkboard in this photo (not sure if this is Golders or Morden), big box with a yellow lid.
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Post by fivethirtytwo on Jun 17, 2017 18:27:01 GMT
Does LU modify everything that they don't design but use? I thought the Central line points were all M63 and a number of other locations around the system have had them installed albeit a number of years ago now. I can't answer that as I just don't know but it does modify lots of stuff, Westinghouse safety relays are a prime example. Look closely and you will see modifications made over the years, some for safety reasons following wrong side failures but others made in the signal overhaul shops such as leaving out the spare coils, changing the bearing material etc. Modifications such as the latter caused wrong side signal failures in the early noughties and I spent many hours changing relays all over the Picc and Jub as a result. I expect the change of bearing material was made in the SOS for cost reasons without consulting the signal department with regard to signalling standards, it must've cost an absolute fortune to correct that poor decision, we were changing so many prime critical relays that SOS ran out of them so we had to resort to relay swapping within IMRs moving potentially faulty relays from prime critical circuits to less critical circuits. The affected relays were mostly DEV track relays as far as I recall and the problem was that the dodgy bearings potentially allowed them to stay UP when they should have dropped. Look closely at the DEV 3 position (WKRs) and see the weight at the front, that was a modification following a failure in which the WKR got stuck between normal and reverse, the vane somehow being trapped. Most traditional LT signalling equipment was modified over time as a result of failures or the availability of better replacement parts, air motors for points and trainstops and chairlock WLs are a good example the very heavy old variety being replaced with much lighter ones. I changed a lot of trainstop motors on the Picc when the new motors were available and WLs on several sets of chairlocks. Of course what we can say is that the heavy old signalling equipment that I first encountered in the 1970s was built to last a lifetime, I'm not so sure that modern equipment has anything like the same longevity and most is probably specified to be guaranteed to last no more than 20 years. CSDE equipment had a 20 year life specified so it should all have been replaced by now as we installed all the original kit in the early 1990s, I did the H&C from Hammersmith all the way to Barking and some of the District sites in the central area. Here's a photo of a DEV 3 position WKR. I see what you mean about the weight at the front (on the vane).
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Post by Nortube on Jun 18, 2017 9:06:19 GMT
At first I thought the points in the photo were at Morden, but Morden doesn't have a GF1 point (GF1 was the north permission lever on the frame).
The points are at Golders Green, next to the shunters cabin. The top of the photo is towards the depot. GF1 points at the bottom lead to 28 road (the "shunter's shunting neck") or, as shown set Normal, towards 27 road ("neck") / main.
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drico
Station Inspector
Thank you driver, off clips.
Posts: 202
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Post by drico on Jun 18, 2017 10:27:01 GMT
I thought that the points were all surelock motors and that the air operated ones had been replaced. I was not in the first car but did not hear the swish of the points. I thought you were talking about all the points on the main at Golders Green. If you're referring to the points in Golders Green depot (the ones labelled D11, D12, D13 etc), they might be electric, but they're not surelock points. Here's a photo of surelocks. The points in the depot look like the ones on the other side of the walkboard in this photo (not sure if this is Golders or Morden), big box with a yellow lid. The photo of the Surelock points looks like a set in the Tube Lines Skils Centre in the training complex at Stratford Market Depot.
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Post by dave1 on Jun 18, 2017 17:38:11 GMT
I thought that the points were all surelock motors and that the air operated ones had been replaced. I was not in the first car but did not hear the swish of the points. I thought you were talking about all the points on the main at Golders Green. If you're referring to the points in Golders Green depot (the ones labelled D11, D12, D13 etc), they might be electric, but they're not surelock points. Here's a photo of surelocks. The points in the depot look like the ones on the other side of the walkboard in this photo (not sure if this is Golders or Morden), big box with a yellow lid. I did mean the main, are all LU depot points now electric?
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Post by dave1 on Jun 18, 2017 17:39:14 GMT
I thought you were talking about all the points on the main at Golders Green. If you're referring to the points in Golders Green depot (the ones labelled D11, D12, D13 etc), they might be electric, but they're not surelock points. Here's a photo of surelocks. The points in the depot look like the ones on the other side of the walkboard in this photo (not sure if this is Golders or Morden), big box with a yellow lid. The photo of the Surelock points looks like a set in the Tube Lines Skils Centre in the training complex at Stratford Market Depot. From the photos I have seen on the web I agree.
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Post by dave1 on Jun 18, 2017 17:40:35 GMT
I can't answer that as I just don't know but it does modify lots of stuff, Westinghouse safety relays are a prime example. Look closely and you will see modifications made over the years, some for safety reasons following wrong side failures but others made in the signal overhaul shops such as leaving out the spare coils, changing the bearing material etc. Modifications such as the latter caused wrong side signal failures in the early noughties and I spent many hours changing relays all over the Picc and Jub as a result. I expect the change of bearing material was made in the SOS for cost reasons without consulting the signal department with regard to signalling standards, it must've cost an absolute fortune to correct that poor decision, we were changing so many prime critical relays that SOS ran out of them so we had to resort to relay swapping within IMRs moving potentially faulty relays from prime critical circuits to less critical circuits. The affected relays were mostly DEV track relays as far as I recall and the problem was that the dodgy bearings potentially allowed them to stay UP when they should have dropped. Look closely at the DEV 3 position (WKRs) and see the weight at the front, that was a modification following a failure in which the WKR got stuck between normal and reverse, the vane somehow being trapped. Most traditional LT signalling equipment was modified over time as a result of failures or the availability of better replacement parts, air motors for points and trainstops and chairlock WLs are a good example the very heavy old variety being replaced with much lighter ones. I changed a lot of trainstop motors on the Picc when the new motors were available and WLs on several sets of chairlocks. Of course what we can say is that the heavy old signalling equipment that I first encountered in the 1970s was built to last a lifetime, I'm not so sure that modern equipment has anything like the same longevity and most is probably specified to be guaranteed to last no more than 20 years. CSDE equipment had a 20 year life specified so it should all have been replaced by now as we installed all the original kit in the early 1990s, I did the H&C from Hammersmith all the way to Barking and some of the District sites in the central area. Here's a photo of a DEV 3 position WKR. I see what you mean about the weight at the front (on the vane). From photos I have seen there are lots of this type of relay or similar style.
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Post by dave1 on Jun 18, 2017 17:42:45 GMT
fivethirtytwo it's a pity you are not a member as we can't ask you questions as such.
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Post by Nortube on Jun 19, 2017 8:52:53 GMT
All hand-worked points in Morden Depot were changed to electric powered many years ago so that the shunter could operate them from a PC in the shunters cabin rather than having a shunter run around the depot pulling points to set up a road. Rodding operated points 2 - 5 operated from the ground frame in the cabin were changed to power operated and so I think that they also went electric at the same time. I assume that Golders Green Depot was converted in the same way.
Prior to the points being powered, with the exception of one set of points, all points going into Morden Depot after the shunters cabin were facing points. A ground shunter would operate each individual point lever locally to set up the road for the stabling train. Depending where a train had to be stabled (they weren't all stabled on the next available road, especially if a train was particularly wanted on a certain road for exam etc.), this could involve a lot of running around and hopping over live rails to get to the next point lever that was to be operated. This was especially so when trains were booked to stable every three minutes. A train suddenly appearing out of turn could mean more work as a road just set for it may have to be reset for somewhere else in the depot.
It was simpler for trains leaving the depot entering service. The points were now trailing points. The train would be called up on the Tannoy (later, the train radio) and the driver would move the train forward to the shunters cabin. If any of the points weren't set, the first pair of wheels would just throw the points over with a clunk. Officially, the points had to always be set (manually by the shunter) for the route of the train, but this was never done.
When the points became powered and controlled from the cabin, the shunter was supposed to set the route for the train before calling the train up, but this sometimes wasn’t done and there were cases where the train went through points that weren’t set, damaging them. The ‘check the correct route is set if not contact the shunter’ rule was then enforced, with the driver getting the blame if points were run through.
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