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Post by hellocontrol on Apr 17, 2015 11:38:02 GMT
A couple of questions I have been asked.
1. At what was the NB starter CX platform B19 there was a sign which read set back to headwall, there was also a floodgate closed sign and a separate red light. I remember the last two but not the set back sign, now the points behind were spring operated IIRC. Have looked at all the material I have and there is nothing.
2. Between Bank and London Bridge there was a speed indicator some where between signal FNX6371 and signal FNX639 so was the last signal speed controlled, again I have looked through what I have and nothing.
I thought that there was something on here but have not been able to find.
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Post by Nortube on Apr 18, 2015 10:55:34 GMT
1.
I'm assuming the 'Set back to headwall' sign was related to the floodgate, which is quite close to the platform and only a few feet ahead of starter B19.
Presumably, if a train was stopped in the normal position and the floodgate was going to be closed, the sign would indicate to the driver that the train should be set back.
If stopped before B19, the train would not be obstructing the floodgate, however it would be occupying the track circuit which would not allow the floodgate to be closed.
Out of interest, I've given the track circuit details below:
Platform 1 has three related track circuits:
LL - starts at approximately the end of 24 points and carries on about 1/3 way into the platform.
If a train is departing platform 1, B32 (intermediate home (from Oval)) can clear as soon as the last pair of wheels of the departing train has cleared LL to allow the next train for platform 1 up as far as junction signal B31A.
MM - follows after LL and ends at the north end of the platform.
If a train is departing platform1:
B36A (outer home Kennington loop) can clear as soon as the last pair of wheels of the departing train has cleared MM and allow a train up as far as B36B (loop inner home).
B31A (route 2) can clear as soon as the last pair of wheels of the departing train has cleared MM and allow a train up as far as B31/1B (inner home to CX branch from Oval).
NN - follows on from MM (i.e., starts at the north end of the NB platform) and includes either side of the floodgate. It is also the overlap of B19.
I can't remember exactly how the floodgate works to hold any relevant signals at danger, but I think the basics of it is is that it acts in exactly the same way as anything else and breaks (or interrupts) the track circuit path (NN in this case) - think back to the Rules and Regs diagram at the school :-)
The points trailing from the loop / Oval were converted to power operation in the 90's (I think this only left Camden City SB as the only non-powered trailing points on Northern line passenger tracks, and these were converted to power operation at a later date). The spring points leading to the sidings were also converted to powere operation. I think it was in the mid 00's
Although these points were close to the platform, there is still space for s train to stop at the headwall without being over the points. The last pair of wheels at the south end of the train would certainly have been north of the points.
2.
This would have been prior to the SB diversion at London Bridge when there was no SB floodgate andstalled and FNX639 was renumbered to A639.
As far as I know, there was no speed signalling for that area, certainly none that I remember having gone through that was releated to a 'pop-up' illuminated restriction sign. A permanentt internally illuminated restriction sign (the number in the square box) always meant a permanent speed restriction.
There is a permament (reflictive) 35mph sign at A639, so it's probable that the sign you mention was a permanent restriction sign. The speed limit and position of the sign in relation to A639 may have changed since the diversion as a higher speed may have been possible with the new layout.
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Post by hellocontrol on Apr 18, 2015 14:20:18 GMT
1. I'm assuming the 'Set back to headwall' sign was related to the floodgate, which is quite close to the platform and only a few feet ahead of starter B19. Presumably, if a train was stopped in the normal position and the floodgate was going to be closed, the sign would indicate to the driver that the train should be set back. If stopped before B19, the train would not be obstructing the floodgate, however it would be occupying the track circuit which would not allow the floodgate to be closed. Out of interest, I've given the track circuit details below: Platform 1 has three related track circuits: LL - starts at approximately the end of 24 points and carries on about 1/3 way into the platform. If a train is departing platform 1, B32 (intermediate home (from Oval)) can clear as soon as the last pair of wheels of the departing train has cleared LL to allow the next train for platform 1 up as far as junction signal B31A. MM - follows after LL and ends at the north end of the platform. If a train is departing platform1: B36A (outer home Kennington loop) can clear as soon as the last pair of wheels of the departing train has cleared MM and allow a train up as far as B36B (loop inner home). B31A (route 2) can clear as soon as the last pair of wheels of the departing train has cleared MM and allow a train up as far as B31/1B (inner home to CX branch from Oval). NN - follows on from MM (i.e., starts at the north end of the NB platform) and includes either side of the floodgate. It is also the overlap of B19. I can't remember exactly how the floodgate works to hold any relevant signals at danger, but I think the basics of it is is that it acts in exactly the same way as anything else and breaks (or interrupts) the track circuit path (NN in this case) - think back to the Rules and Regs diagram at the school :-) The points trailing from the loop / Oval were converted to power operation in the 90's (I think this only left Camden City SB as the only non-powered trailing points on Northern line passenger tracks, and these were converted to power operation at a later date). The spring points leading to the sidings were also converted to powere operation. I think it was in the mid 00's Although these points were close to the platform, there is still space for s train to stop at the headwall without being over the points. The last pair of wheels at the south end of the train would certainly have been north of the points. 2. This would have been prior to the SB diversion at London Bridge when there was no SB floodgate andstalled and FNX639 was renumbered to A639. As far as I know, there was no speed signalling for that area, certainly none that I remember having gone through that was releated to a 'pop-up' illuminated restriction sign. A permanentt internally illuminated restriction sign (the number in the square box) always meant a permanent speed restriction. There is a permament (reflictive) 35mph sign at A639, so it's probable that the sign you mention was a permanent restriction sign. The speed limit and position of the sign in relation to A639 may have changed since the diversion as a higher speed may have been possible with the new layout. I am also in the dark but I suspect if this sign was to do with the floodgate then there must have been an override switch or plunger due to being so close to the floodgate. Who operated this and the sign I don't know as there is nothing I can find, I had a look in the yellow peril when PMs came in and there is no mention of anything. I have included a section of the diagram. Re the speed control I thought that would have been the reason but it appears this was earlier mid 60s.  |
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Post by Nortube on Apr 19, 2015 8:37:13 GMT
Looking at my post again, I realise that the reflective 35 would have been the equivalent of the 'T' for the Termination of a speed restriction. In recent years, it has become the norm for the termination of a PSR to be shown by a figure that is the line speed (35 for the Bank branch) rather than a 'T'. Looking at the diagram, there is a 25 PSR at FNX6371, would this be the PSR you're referring to? FNX6371 is just south of the Bank SB floodgate, at the start of the curve and so the PSR is for the curve. The next signal is A639 (was FNX639) and this is where the 35 sign is for the end of the 25 PSR. I'm assuming that the 'Set back to headwall' sign was switched on / off as required either at the floodgate control room at Bull and Bush or possibly at the local floodgate operation at Kennington (or perhaps there was the option for both). This is assuming that the floodgates could be operated from Bull and Bush. It's possible that the sign could be switched from elsewhere locally, such as the SM's office or even on the platform. However, given that this would only be needed if there was a train berthed as normal in the platform, I see little point in there being a switch on the platform as staff could just as easily inform the train crew to set back. Another option would be to install the switch in the Kennington signal cabin. I don't have a copy of the Kennington Regulator's desk layout to hand at the moment but, as far as I know, the Regulator didn't operate the switch (I'll check later). If he didn't, then it's possible that there was never a switch in the signal cabin either. It would make more sense for whoever was operating the floodgate to be able to operate the sign as well. This would be similar to the Regulator being able to switch on the 'Reverse' signs at selected emergency reversing points. Edit I've asked, and have had it confirmed that there was no button for the Regulator to operate the sign. I see that the yellow peril doesn't even show the floodgate! The YP seems to miss out a few things which I think would be shown on the YPs of later years (I may be wrong). The siding traction current circuit breaker and TT wires panel near the tailwall of platform 1 is not shown either, assuming that it was actually there at the time of the YP. I'll have to look through my YPs to see what detail they actually show, although I think I gave most of them away. Although not really relevant, I've attached photos of the two signals. The speed restriction signs are not shown as they are outside the photos. Excuse the poor quality, it was rather dusty! Click on the photo to enlarge   |
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Post by hellocontrol on Apr 20, 2015 7:23:29 GMT
Looking at my post again, I realise that the reflective 35 would have been the equivalent of the 'T' for the Termination of a speed restriction. In recent years, it has become the norm for the termination of a PSR to be shown by a figure that is the line speed (35 for the Bank branch) rather than a 'T'. Looking at the diagram, there is a 25 PSR at FNX6371, would this be the PSR you're referring to? FNX6371 is just south of the Bank SB floodgate, at the start of the curve and so the PSR is for the curve. The next signal is A639 (was FNX639) and this is where the 35 sign is for the end of the 25 PSR. I'm assuming that the 'Set back to headwall' sign was switched on / off as required either at the floodgate control room at Bull and Bush or possibly at the local floodgate operation at Kennington (or perhaps there was the option for both). This is assuming that the floodgates could be operated from Bull and Bush. It's possible that the sign could be switched from elsewhere locally, such as the SM's office or even on the platform. However, given that this would only be needed if there was a train berthed as normal in the platform, I see little point in there being a switch on the platform as staff could just as easily inform the train crew to set back. Another option would be to install the switch in the Kennington signal cabin. I don't have a copy of the Kennington Regulator's desk layout to hand at the moment but, as far as I know, the Regulator didn't operate the switch (I'll check later). If he didn't, then it's possible that there was never a switch in the signal cabin either. It would make more sense for whoever was operating the floodgate to be able to operate the sign as well. This would be similar to the Regulator being able to switch on the 'Reverse' signs at selected emergency reversing points. Edit I've asked, and have had it confirmed that there was no button for the Regulator to operate the sign. I see that the yellow peril doesn't even show the floodgate! The YP seems to miss out a few things which I think would be shown on the YPs of later years (I may be wrong). The siding traction current circuit breaker and TT wires panel near the tailwall of platform 1 is not shown either, assuming that it was actually there at the time of the YP. I'll have to look through my YPs to see what detail they actually show, although I think I gave most of them away. Although not really relevant, I've attached photos of the two signals. The speed restriction signs are not shown as they are outside the photos. Excuse the poor quality, it was rather dusty! Click on the photo to enlarge No the PSR I think is different although can not be 100% sure but as you say they altered re the use of T sign. See below. The sign at Kennington may well have been operated by someone at Bull & Bush, but I would have thought they would only be involved in the operation of the floodgates and perhaps someone local would be involved. The more I think about it is why the sign because a train would occupy the same track circuits even if it did set back. The YP does not show anything connected with the floodgates, I think the panel you mention came in later so that may be the reason there is no mention. I have had something sent to me after putting out the feelers re the Bank. Its part of the wiring for the section so shows what was asked about. Those photos you show the second one with A639 the old phone shows going to London Bridge station, was this altered as I think it went to the floodgate when it was there.  |
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Post by Nortube on Apr 20, 2015 12:19:08 GMT
An interesting diagram. I've had a quick look, but I'll look at in in more detail later when I get a bit of time and see if I can follow the wiring. I was shown and given an explanation of book diagram wiring and components (such as relay codes) a few years back, but my memory is a bit rusty! It shows that there was an illuminated speed restriction sign, but it would have only illuminated when tied in with the floodgate operation. I'm not sure if was associated with FNX639 or FNX641. It's difficult to tell from the diagram as some of the details for 639 are continued off the right hand side of the page. I suspect it may have been for 641. It would depend on the distance that the speed sign is from the signal and the actual speed of the speed restriction. I did have photographs of most FNX signals and as far as I know, they didn't normally have the squashed 'D' to indicate a signal phone nearby, even though a phone may have been present. Some FNX signals doubled up as the X signal at a controlled area and would have had a phone to that station's signal phone panel. Generally, FNX signals had illuminated 'A'. Those that didn't were normally part of the controlled area working, as no controlled area signals on the Northern line had an illuminated 'A' (ignoring the automatic signals controlled from Totteridge ground frame". It's possible that FNX639 was one of these signals as it had no illuminated 'A', hence the phone to the station rather than the floodgate. Also, it has the squashed D. I'm assuming that the phone was always labelled the way it is. It certainly wouldn't have been relabelled at the time FNX was renumbered to A639, because the renumbering was only done for the diversion, meaning the signal phone and squashed D were effectively redundant. I did try the phone and got no answer (blank line). The wires were probably cut somewhere! Kennington Looking at a diagram, a train stopped with the cab level at the north headwall (as it would be when set back), would not occupy NN track as the first pair of wheels would still be on MM track (the first wheel is about 6 - 8 (?) feet from the front of the train and the blockjoint is just a couple of feet from the end of the platform. In a case of "stating the bleedin' obvious", starter B19 had a FC (Floodgate Closed) illuminated sign on it. As the floodgate was only about six feet away, the sign seems a bit superfluous, unless drivers' eyesight requirements weren't so strict in those days  |
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Post by hellocontrol on Apr 20, 2015 17:37:03 GMT
An interesting diagram. I've had a quick look, but I'll look at in in more detail later when I get a bit of time and see if I can follow the wiring. I was shown and given an explanation of book diagram wiring and components (such as relay codes) a few years back, but my memory is a bit rusty! It shows that there was an illuminated speed restriction sign, but it would have only illuminated when tied in with the floodgate operation. I'm not sure if was associated with FNX639 or FNX641. It's difficult to tell from the diagram as some of the details for 639 are continued off the right hand side of the page. I suspect it may have been for 641. It would depend on the distance that the speed sign is from the signal and the actual speed of the speed restriction. I did have photographs of most FNX signals and as far as I know, they didn't normally have the squashed 'D' to indicate a signal phone nearby, even though a phone may have been present. Some FNX signals doubled up as the X signal at a controlled area and would have had a phone to that station's signal phone panel. Generally, FNX signals had illuminated 'A'. Those that didn't were normally part of the controlled area working, as no controlled area signals on the Northern line had an illuminated 'A' (ignoring the automatic signals controlled from Totteridge ground frame". It's possible that FNX639 was one of these signals as it had no illuminated 'A', hence the phone to the station rather than the floodgate. Also, it has the squashed D. I'm assuming that the phone was always labelled the way it is. It certainly wouldn't have been relabelled at the time FNX was renumbered to A639, because the renumbering was only done for the diversion, meaning the signal phone and squashed D were effectively redundant. I did try the phone and got no answer (blank line). The wires were probably cut somewhere! Kennington Looking at a diagram, a train stopped with the cab level at the north headwall (as it would be when set back), would not occupy NN track as the first pair of wheels would still be on MM track (the first wheel is about 6 - 8 (?) feet from the front of the train and the blockjoint is just a couple of feet from the end of the platform. In a case of "stating the bleedin' obvious", starter B19 had a FC (Floodgate Closed) illuminated sign on it. As the floodgate was only about six feet away, the sign seems a bit superfluous, unless drivers' eyesight requirements weren't so strict in those days I don't if there would be any speed signalling involved with floodgates but would not rule it out. I have checked and the phone at FNX639 went to Leicester Square RR in 1962 and when the area was transferred to Cobourg St in 1969 went to the station. I agree some of the signals would have had dual roles, the EB starter at Westminster being one of them. The sign at Kennington does seem to be one of the many oddities that existed on the railway. |
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Post by Nortube on Apr 20, 2015 21:31:46 GMT
I think that my seeing the speed restriction as associated with the floodgate operation has been a red herring. Whilst some signals (not necessarilly FNX signals) have been speed controlled when floodgate control is in operation, I can't see the point of their use in this instance as all it would do is let the train get nearer the floodgate. I think that what is more likely is that it was either:
1 part of the speed signalling used to allow trains to get closer to the station when there is still in a train in the platform (like at Oval NB and Waterloo NB)
or
2 speed signalling if the crossover at London Bridge is reversed
Looking at earlier diagrams, there is no sign of any additional home signals that would be expected if it was 1 (Oval and Waterloo both have 5 - A-E). Of course, they may have been removed if the speed signaling was subsequently removed. It would have been before my time.
Using approach-controlled signals for dropping the speed of a train down if it is approaching the platform where the crossover ahead of the platform is reversed is sometimes used where the crossover is near to the platform. This allows the train to enter the platform at reduced speed (the slower the speed, the less braking distance is required) but I' not sure if that would have been used here.
Speed signs are rarely used for this purpose. The fact that the signal ahead is red would normally mean that the driver would be slowing down to stop at the signal anyway. However, having a speed sign would tell the driver that, even if the signal cleared as the train slowed down, the driver should not excede the speed shown on the sign.
The reason for the speed-controlled restriction is a bit of a mystery!
One example of a signal having a speed restriction during floodgate control is B31/1B (the inner home going into Kennington platform 1 from Oval). This has a FC (Floodgate Closed) sign and is a speed signal when the floodgate is closed. The speed restriction (as such) is a standard one, created by creating a delay before B31/1B clears. The delay is triggered by the train occupying track circuit Q after the train has passed junction signal B31A. This delay means that the train will have almost stopped by the time the signal clears.
Initially holding the signal at danger ensured that the train would stop (or be tripped). The driver would know by the FC sign that the floodgate is closed and thus proceed into the platform at caution, avoiding any risk of a platform overrun.
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Post by hellocontrol on Apr 21, 2015 16:09:55 GMT
I think that my seeing the speed restriction as associated with the floodgate operation has been a red herring. Whilst some signals (not necessarilly FNX signals) have been speed controlled when floodgate control is in operation, I can't see the point of their use in this instance as all it would do is let the train get nearer the floodgate. I think that what is more likely is that it was either: 1 part of the speed signalling used to allow trains to get closer to the station when there is still in a train in the platform (like at Oval NB and Waterloo NB) or 2 speed signalling if the crossover at London Bridge is reversed Looking at earlier diagrams, there is no sign of any additional home signals that would be expected if it was 1 (Oval and Waterloo both have 5 - A-E). Of course, they may have been removed if the speed signaling was subsequently removed. It would have been before my time. Using approach-controlled signals for dropping the speed of a train down if it is approaching the platform where the crossover ahead of the platform is reversed is sometimes used where the crossover is near to the platform. This allows the train to enter the platform at reduced speed (the slower the speed, the less braking distance is required) but I' not sure if that would have been used here. Speed signs are rarely used for this purpose. The fact that the signal ahead is red would normally mean that the driver would be slowing down to stop at the signal anyway. However, having a speed sign would tell the driver that, even if the signal cleared as the train slowed down, the driver should not excede the speed shown on the sign. The reason for the speed-controlled restriction is a bit of a mystery! One example of a signal having a speed restriction during floodgate control is B31/1B (the inner home going into Kennington platform 1 from Oval). This has a FC (Floodgate Closed) sign and is a speed signal when the floodgate is closed. The speed restriction (as such) is a standard one, created by creating a delay before B31/1B clears. The delay is triggered by the train occupying track circuit Q after the train has passed junction signal B31A. This delay means that the train will have almost stopped by the time the signal clears. Initially holding the signal at danger ensured that the train would stop (or be tripped). The driver would know by the FC sign that the floodgate is closed and thus proceed into the platform at caution, avoiding any risk of a platform overrun. Perhaps the speed indicator at Bank is something before floodgates I don't remember anyone saying about the signalling other than the floodgates. You are right about signals being approach controlled and when the floodgate was closed, I found some material that I forgot about although no mention of the signs, and like you have said with the floodgate closed signal B31/1B would clear if track Q was occupied for 15 seconds and signal B36B if track 275B for the same amount of time. |
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Post by railtechnician on Apr 22, 2015 5:39:44 GMT
Chaps an interesting thread!
As far as I know there never was a floodgate telephone at FNX639.
The 'squashed D' as you call it is known to engineering staff as a 'Polo' and as you know is the indicator for the presence of a stick telephone.
I recall the Ericsson Annunciator to which that phone was connected at London Bridge. During the JLE works there it was extant in a rather denuded subway passage of bare concrete and exposed segments when I was there diverting comms cables around the bulldozers in the running tunnel to Borough. I'm sure the stick phone at FNX639 would have remained in operation up until the Northern line resignalling otherwise it should have disappeared years ago (most station platform Ericsson Annunciator panels were removed in the late 1980s following the 1983 switch from Strowger electromechanical to MD110 digital telephone exchanges. That said there were still a couple around and working in the early 2000s with only stick phones connected to them.
In the days when LT/LU did its own resignalling work we would have marked a decommissioned/redundant phone with a painted yellow cross (the symbol for 'comes out') on changeover night and/or either covered it up with sacking/black PVC or removed it on the night. The polo would have been removed or covered up. These days the signalling contractors are apparently allowed to get away with lower professional standards if that phone is now redundant!
It has been a long time since I last looked at a floodgate, however, from the strip print a 'gate locked' relay drops when the floodgate is unlocked, the rail seals (hands up I cannot recall those at all!) are broken or the escape hatch is open. FNX6371 has the floodgate 20 and 22 'gate locked' relays in its selection as well as a controlling switch {which I assume existed to allow local testing of the floodgate(s)}. Either 'gate locked' relay dropping also extinguishes the FNX6371 'A' sign.
I last recall seeing floodgates tested in the late 1970s, I remember one at Embankment being tested on a Sunday morning before start of traffic. Last I heard before retiring was that all the floodgates were secured locked and relevant contacts in signal selections bridged out as it was feared that some floodgates if operated, in particular like the ones that drop from the roof at Liverpool Street, would never be able to be normalised. Over the years I worked in a number of Floodgate relay rooms, Kennington, Moorgate, Liverpool Street, Green Park etc and one thing that they all had in common was old relays. Many were dated 1961 and nothwithstanding power outages the vast majority were permanently 'UP' for decades, only the delta relays in signal selections seeing regular pick up and drop away and generally those being the only relays that were changed as the carbon contacts wear out with daily operation.
Since I retired I have heard that there were/are moves afoot to return floodgates to full operation but that was several years ago and of course would require a lot of work particularly on the Bakerloo where the resignalling involved breaking out concrete to make way for new cabling such that floodgates, even if they could be closed, would not be sealed!
It's a shame there is only a partial strip print with both ends missing!
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Post by hellocontrol on Apr 22, 2015 7:58:29 GMT
RT I have asked the person who sent me the partial part of the wiring diagram if they could send the rest. Re the phone at FNX639 according to the YP's there was.
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Post by Nortube on Apr 22, 2015 9:46:01 GMT
For my own interest, as a sideline to what I was doing at the time, I decided to log all signal phones on the Northern line in the early 00's and I later put together as a reference book and it was issued to all the Northern line train-side staff. If anyone is interested, see the Signal Signal Post Telephone List book on this page: [ Click here ]The book lists all the signals in a controlled area, whether a phone is provided, and any general information about the phone. There is also a separate section dealing with FNX signals, as they weren't always in a controlled area (e.g. Tottenham Court Road). Of course, since the line was resignalled for ATP, this is no longer relevant. As, by the time it was issued, the book had a dual purpose (it also included remote Rout Securing), the diagrams were for controlled areas only and did not include the floodgates as I'd never needed to show them on previous diagrams. With hindsight, they could have been added, although many would not have been shown as they were not in controlled areas. Whilst not having time to test all the phones (many of those in the tunnel section were identified and photographed whilst on the train), some were able to be tested during track walks with night staff at the corresponding station. Generally, those at FNX signals were not tested unless those signals did not have an illuminated 'A' - i.e. the signal was normally part of the controlled area (these usually went to that stations signal panel anyway). One location that had a signal phone on an automatic signal was between Angel and Kings Cross: On A616 NB and A615 SB. Apparently, the reason for a phone at these signals was due to the long distance between stations (no train radio in those days). A616 went to the KX panel, whereas A615 went to somewhere at Angel. The phone at A615 was unlabelled. It was tested and there was no response. Station staff had no record of it. General consensus was that it came out in the old station and was redundant. A641A (was FNX641) at London Bridge SB was, like A639, had a squashed D and was labelled "To London Bridge". Again, no response and staff sidn't know where it came out. Like the phone at A639, it was redundant when London Bridge ceased to be a controlled area with the new SB diversion. RT - there does seem to be various bits of equipment around that has been redundant for years where it is no longer used or there have been alterations (as at London Bridge and Angel) and it has been missed. I've seen many examples when driving / walking the line. I suppose that, in the scale of the works at London Bridge, a couple of missed signal phones and squashed Ds were minor |
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Post by hellocontrol on Apr 22, 2015 13:26:56 GMT
RT the person who sent the wiring to me has said they will send all of the diagram to me in a number of sections. Nortube those books of yours are excellent and now historical.
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Post by railtechnician on Apr 23, 2015 8:08:12 GMT
RT I have asked the person who sent me the partial part of the wiring diagram if they could send the rest. Re the phone at FNX639 according to the YP's there was. To see the whole wiring strip would be great, thanks. As for FNX639, I am not saying there was not a phone there but I am saying there was not a floodgate phone there! The distinction is simple, 'stick' phones went either to signal boxes/cabins, regulating rooms or stations but floodgate phones went to floodgate control at Bull & Bush. Stick phone locations were marked with a polo indicator flag and the phones have black & white chevrons , floodgate phones were plain cases often painted green i.e. no chevron markings. Labels may or may not be found on the outside of a case, some were inside, generally all phones were labelled with where they connected to. To be clear a 'stick' phone (otherwise known as TAS or SPT) was not a floodgate phone, it being associated with the 'stick' (hence the polo) rather than a nearby floodgate. Floodgate phones could be found in tunnels as well as at stations and in the vicinity of floodgate relay rooms and other related areas. The last one that I saw was at Liverpool Street which I recovered from the Central line relay room wall while diverting all the comms cabling from there to the T/T relay room to make way for the new escalator 4,5,6 passageway to the platform. Most became redundant not long after I began my LT career, they simply were not maintained and many no doubt became disconnected or buried during many station refurbishments in the 1980s where projects were not sufficiently funded to investigate unidentified cables beyond an immediate project location. Quite often old and apparently redundant cables would, if in the way, be cut and labelled pending reported loss of a circuit somewhere, otherwise left in situ and forgotten! If no-one so complained, redundancy was assumed and of course a cut cable then guaranteed it! |
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Post by railtechnician on Apr 23, 2015 9:07:08 GMT
RT - there does seem to be various bits of equipment around that has been redundant for years where it is no longer used or there have been alterations (as at London Bridge and Angel) and it has been missed. I've seen many examples when driving / walking the line. I suppose that, in the scale of the works at London Bridge, a couple of missed signal phones and squashed Ds were minor There is lots of redundant comms kit around on the railway, typically and principally it is for one of two reasons (a) nobody wanted to take the responsibility of recovering the old until the new had been brought into service and proven its integrity and reliability (b) recovery was going to be expensive and with money for new projects being tight it was decided to await a bigger job such as line resignalling to recover all redundant kit in one hit. Some examples:- When the new depot shunters radio systems were installed at Oakwood and Northfields depots the old depot shunters loudspeaker systems were left in situ and hot! Thus they could be reinstated at short notice if necessary. I discovered them more than a decade after the radio systems were in use, 1950s valve amplifiers hidden in cupboards in the shunters cabins and still powered up. Indeed a new depot loudspeaker system was installed in a new east end shunters cabin at Northfields and both it and its new west end brother were redundant having never been in use, indeed last I heard the old and new west end shunters cabins were going to be demolished as part of a project to extend the train shed. Earls Court control room saw many improvements in technology over several decades but very little of the old technology was recovered. Not long before I retired I was asked to 'tidy up' the Picc and District controllers desks so that some new equipment could be installed, quite frankly few people had the 'bottle' to do it and they were afraid of disturbing anything, especially the outside contractors who were initially asked to do the work (there had been a train radio failure which resulted in trains having to be double manned and one or two other issues which made operational managers rather wary too but as I was a control room T/O there at the time and I was quite happy to take full responsibility). I recovered the original telephone panels and associated cabling and in the process reinstated some lost circuitry such as the Northfields sump alarm, I also recovered redundant cabling and power supplies within the two desks and the three desk pedestals and relocated working train radio and CCTV equipment to clear space in the desks before tidying all remaining wiring into a neat loom. I then went to the relay room and recovered all the equipment there including a redundant telephone rack which still carried the long redundant DRICO relay sets as well as the line relays for all the controller and regulator defunct direct telephone lines as well as the associated power supplies and ringing converters. I removed all the redundant strip connections from the main distribution frame releasing space for new cabling to be installed and tidied up other miscellaneous kit while I was there. I carted two van loads of redundant equipment back to the Picc comms stores at Acton. My engineering manager was more than happy as was the DLCM in charge of the control room but that was really the tip of the iceberg, I had identified plenty more redundant equipment and cabling and was told that I had done enough, indeed I was rewarded with £200 in vouchers for my efforts as I recall. Back in 1962 the Northern line tunnels at Old Street suffered corrosion from acid in the ground and had to be strengthened. During the work all the comms and signalling cables were diverted into the other tunnel and when replaced the outcome was that a lot of original scrap lead cable was simply left in the cable run. Some 30 years later the same section of tunnel was found to be seriously weakened and I was tasked to divert all the comms cabling to the other tunnel and then renew the cabling through the newly relined (expanded to a greater diameter) tunnel. In the process I recovered not only the scrap that I had created but also all the scrap cable left in situ in 1962. Fortunately we got a train out on a Saturday night and so we didn't have too far to carry the scrap cable which I got a licence to store in the suicide pit for a few days. Quite often odd things get buried or forgotten e.g. there are probably still a few items of comms kit in situ at Embankment including an Ericsson panel which was in a telephone room covered up by new panelling on the W/B DR, an original Ericsson magneto instrument in a room behind the panelling on the E/B DR, the original station PA valve amplifier on a disused overbridge (Paiges Walk) above a Bakerloo platform, Link Box 'F' in a long disused room off the lower circulating area beneath the DR to name but a few. That is one site but I can think of many where relics of days past will one day be discovered again by those who will know nothing about them and like the posters found at Waterloo in its 1980s refurbishment will excite members of a future generation! I have to say that from an operational standpoint it is unacceptable to leave a redundant 'stick' phone in place and not covered up or marked as redundant (a painted red cross). I am aware that such things as standards are no longer as strictly adhered to as they used to be, I first observed what I regard as sloppy practice at the south end of the Northern line in the late 1980s when the station upgrades were taking place and I was involved in temporarily relocating tunnel telephones as enabling work for the contractors. From that time onward contractors began installing new tunnel telephone equipment and teeing the phones to the tunnel lines instead of putting the phones in series with the lines as per standard safety practice. Although I highlighted it at the time I was told to ignore it even though a fault could render the telephone useless and be unable to discharge the traction as it should. For the same reason I refused to commission the Leicester Square operations room emergency T/T plungers until the contractor rewired them to standard. An in situ uncovered redundant 'stick' phone is not of course as bad as a T/T instrument or plunger that does not work but it could cause an unnecessary delay in taking action in an emergency! I recall installing new T/T headwall phones at Kings Cross Picc line in the late 1980s. I ran out of track time while commissioning the new W/B instrument and thus could not disconnect the old phone so for one day only there were two W/B T/T instruments wired in parallel. I was called into the Engineering Manager's office to explain myself after reporting the situation, he knew that the situation was safe and the integrity of the system was not compromised but he was worried that in an emergency the user would not know which instrument to use! I don't believe that, that level of concern exists today but it should, it really should ! |
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