X signals East end of Picc

[hellocontrol]

I know what LU is like but can anyone tell me why at the east end of the Picc there are X signals not like you would get before entering a controlled area I am sure they were added after the signalling was changed over.

Manor House - Turnpike Lane EB X855
Wood Green - Bounds Green EB X883 & X887

[railtechnician]

Dec 5, 2014 19:25:30 GMT hellocontrol said:

I know what LU is like but can anyone tell me why at the east end of the Picc there are X signals not like you would get before entering a controlled area I am sure they were added after the signalling was changed over.

Manor House - Turnpike Lane EB X855
Wood Green - Bounds Green EB X883 & X887

I'm not sure what you mean but these are the X signals for entering the computer controlled areas of Wood Green and Arnos Grove respectively.

[drico]

The extra X signals were installed in the days of Metal Micky the nick name for the computer that ran the east end of the Picadilly Line. Due to blocking back trains used to pass auto signals under rule, and the computer lost track of how many trains were in sections and give them wrong set numbers, resulting in wrong signals at Wood Green, Arnos Grove, Oakwood and Cockfosters.
The Piccadilly Line service ran late, drivers were pissed off by late meal reliefs, late finish times etc.

[railtechnician]

X855 was grief for me, it was a long walk from Wood Green and the furthest stick phone from the Wood Green stick phone panel. Because of the short engineering hours it was usually touch and go whether I would have enough time to reach and test it without over running. Always the last phone tested there was never time to return to Wood Green so I had to exit at Manor House and get my staff to pick me up. The EWCs were always worried that I would hold the road and delay traffic hours.

[hellocontrol]

Dec 5, 2014 21:38:57 GMT railtechnician said:

Dec 5, 2014 19:25:30 GMT hellocontrol said:

I know what LU is like but can anyone tell me why at the east end of the Picc there are X signals not like you would get before entering a controlled area I am sure they were added after the signalling was changed over.

Manor House - Turnpike Lane EB X855
Wood Green - Bounds Green EB X883 & X887

I'm not sure what you mean but these are the X signals for entering the computer controlled areas of Wood Green and Arnos Grove respectively.

RT What I mean is the norm was for the last auto before a controlled area would usually be an X signal although as we know some areas did not have X signals or they were not the last auto but where these signals are located they are before the last station before the controlled area. The signals were not X signals at the time of the change over they were renumbered after.

[hellocontrol]

Dec 6, 2014 0:20:58 GMT drico said:

The extra X signals were installed in the days of Metal Micky the nick name for the computer that ran the east end of the Picadilly Line. Due to blocking back trains used to pass auto signals under rule, and the computer lost track of how many trains were in sections and give them wrong set numbers, resulting in wrong signals at Wood Green, Arnos Grove, Oakwood and Cockfosters.
The Piccadilly Line service ran late, drivers were pissed off by late meal reliefs, late finish times etc.

Drico Are you saying that they were located where the computer took over? Metal Mickey remember it only too well and the other nickname was Evil Edna.

[railtechnician]

Dec 6, 2014 9:55:29 GMT hellocontrol said:

Dec 5, 2014 21:38:57 GMT railtechnician said:

I'm not sure what you mean but these are the X signals for entering the computer controlled areas of Wood Green and Arnos Grove respectively.

RT What I mean is the norm was for the last auto before a controlled area would usually be an X signal although as we know some areas did not have X signals or they were not the last auto but where these signals are located they are before the last station before the controlled area. The signals were not X signals at the time of the change over they were renumbered after.

Yep I get that, but the east end of the Picc created some unique signalling issues as the first computer controlled area on the combine. Although I was around and based at Arnos Grove signal new works temporary depot during stage 1 resignalling in 1979 I missed the stage 2 final resignalling after transferring to Earls Court telephone section. The nearest I got in the following years was Kings Cross 'L' IMR where I provided the combined Ericsson & stick phone panel and its repeater panel. I did not work on Picc signal maintenance until 1996 and although I covered the whole Picc I was not as familiar with the east end as I mainly worked from Acton to Heathrow, Ealing Bdy and Rayners Lane. The local AETs/TOs each had their own IMR at the east end and seldom ventured outside the east end except for failures, emergencies and the occasional need for more staff on catch up maintenance so each knew the ins and outs of their own IMR. I cannot now recall just how far out from Wood Green the auto circuitry was cabled into Wood Green IMR but it was a fair way as I recall although not as far as X855.

The point is really that regardless of the when, why and so on that A855? became X855 matters not, the purpose was AFAIK exactly the same. My recollection is that TD was a big problem initially and having too many trains in the area could overwhelm the computer although it is something that I heard rather than anything that I know. A former new works colleague, a fellow wireman, earned his spurs at the east end as a young lineman before rising to become the District Line Signal Manager. He had many a tale of the problems he encountered in the early days of computer control of signalling.

[hellocontrol]

Dec 6, 2014 10:40:53 GMT railtechnician said:

Dec 6, 2014 9:55:29 GMT hellocontrol said:

RT What I mean is the norm was for the last auto before a controlled area would usually be an X signal although as we know some areas did not have X signals or they were not the last auto but where these signals are located they are before the last station before the controlled area. The signals were not X signals at the time of the change over they were renumbered after.

Yep I get that, but the east end of the Picc created some unique signalling issues as the first computer controlled area on the combine. Although I was around and based at Arnos Grove signal new works temporary depot during stage 1 resignalling in 1979 I missed the stage 2 final resignalling after transferring to Earls Court telephone section. The nearest I got in the following years was Kings Cross 'L' IMR where I provided the combined Ericsson & stick phone panel and its repeater panel. I did not work on Picc signal maintenance until 1996 and although I covered the whole Picc I was not as familiar with the east end as I mainly worked from Acton to Heathrow, Ealing Bdy and Rayners Lane. The local AETs/TOs each had their own IMR at the east end and seldom ventured outside the east end except for failures, emergencies and the occasional need for more staff on catch up maintenance so each knew the ins and outs of their own IMR. I cannot now recall just how far out from Wood Green the auto circuitry was cabled into Wood Green IMR but it was a fair way as I recall although not as far as X855.

The point is really that regardless of the when, why and so on that A855? became X855 matters not, the purpose was AFAIK exactly the same. My recollection is that TD was a big problem initially and having too many trains in the area could overwhelm the computer although it is something that I heard rather than anything that I know. A former new works colleague, a fellow wireman, earned his spurs at the east end as a young lineman before rising to become the District Line Signal Manager. He had many a tale of the problems he encountered in the early days of computer control of signalling.

I thought Heathrow was the first computer site other than the Watford experiment. Like you say it does not matter about when the signals were renumbered, but it shows a shortsightedness as to potential problems. I can understand the boundary at Turnpike Lane as coming from old to new but there must have been other issue with Wood Green to Arnos Grove or was it just one computer to another. The reason I asked was it did not fit but knowing LU nothing surprises me I just thought they would have renumbered Manor House EB starter and Bounds Green EB starter, there is nothing coming west from Cockfosters so the computers must have talked to each other.

[railtechnician]

Don't forget that going east there were regular reversers at Wood Green and Arnos Grove AFAIR which perhaps explains why all the X signals are on the Eastbound at the east end. Heathrow may have been the first Picc site with a computer but it was not the same as those at the east end as it did not control the signalling in the same way, appearing to the signalman as nothing more than three programme machines and little different to a more conventional site with real programme machines. That said, it was always a real PITA to load timetables into, I spent many hours there reloading timetables whenever I changed programme rolls at South Harrow, Ealing Broadway, Boston Manor, Northfields and Acton Town for special timetables.
As we always used to say on signals if there is one of something then it is a 'standard' and Heathrow was the only site of its particular kind!

[drico]

A Question for Railtechnian, the computers used for the sites at Wood Green, Arnos Grove, Oakwood and Cockfosters were said to be surplus kit which had been developed for use by the U.S. Military to launch rockets in the 1960 -1970's.

[railtechnician]

Dec 7, 2014 9:56:29 GMT drico said:

A Question for Railtechnian, the computers used for the sites at Wood Green, Arnos Grove, Oakwood and Cockfosters were said to be surplus kit which had been developed for use by the U.S. Military to launch rockets in the 1960 -1970's.

True! The actual phrase recounted to me was 'ex-missile firing computers from Vietnam', however, they were not the actual systems used in the war but surplus spares of the same type. These are the popular Hewlett Packard dual computer systems which when originally installed read their programming data from punched paper tape. In the 1990s they, including Heathrow, were given PC 'front ends' as programme loaders and output monitors which also drove printers. We were then able to load timetables from 3.5" floppy disks via the PCs which communicated with the HPs. The connecting network, X25, from Earls Ct main, standby and spare (able to be switched in to replace either main or standby computer) east end control HPs was also upgraded as were the LANs at each of the east end IMRs to give additional facilities and provide the local panels for all east end sites at Ash House east end operating centre. At the time all Picc linemen were trained to maintain the upgraded systems by the external Computer Contractor that designed and installed the upgrades, a rare event although by now most that were trained are probably no longer Picc lineman. If those systems are still in place as I believe I expect the newer linemen have had to teach themselves in the last decade or so as I had to do myself for programme machines, TD and other systems which were not taught on the 29 week T2S lineman course that I took. However, as I retired lineman training was already being modularised into several shorter maintenance courses and I expect that the Picc computer systems may have been taught as a module to some new entrants into the grade.

I had little to do with Met/Jub signalling computers although my recollection is that they were a later development of the same basic systems installed on the Picc. I seldom saw them online when I did Met/Jub signal maintenance Charing X - Stanmore as they were offline most of the night, my usual shift pattern, and AFAIK any programming was generally done remotely from Baker St SCC. I can only recall having to check a Met/Jub printout once during traffic hours on a signal failure when covering Wembley Park call depot on a 12 hour weekend late turn.

[drico]

Well thanks Railtechnician that's what I was told all those years ago, Vietnam was the war story. I was last in Earls Court Control room in mid 2001 having worked from 1982 as Train Regulator.

[hellocontrol]

Dec 6, 2014 10:40:53 GMT railtechnician said:

Dec 6, 2014 9:55:29 GMT hellocontrol said:

RT What I mean is the norm was for the last auto before a controlled area would usually be an X signal although as we know some areas did not have X signals or they were not the last auto but where these signals are located they are before the last station before the controlled area. The signals were not X signals at the time of the change over they were renumbered after.

Yep I get that, but the east end of the Picc created some unique signalling issues as the first computer controlled area on the combine. Although I was around and based at Arnos Grove signal new works temporary depot during stage 1 resignalling in 1979 I missed the stage 2 final resignalling after transferring to Earls Court telephone section. The nearest I got in the following years was Kings Cross 'L' IMR where I provided the combined Ericsson & stick phone panel and its repeater panel. I did not work on Picc signal maintenance until 1996 and although I covered the whole Picc I was not as familiar with the east end as I mainly worked from Acton to Heathrow, Ealing Bdy and Rayners Lane. The local AETs/TOs each had their own IMR at the east end and seldom ventured outside the east end except for failures, emergencies and the occasional need for more staff on catch up maintenance so each knew the ins and outs of their own IMR. I cannot now recall just how far out from Wood Green the auto circuitry was cabled into Wood Green IMR but it was a fair way as I recall although not as far as X855.

The point is really that regardless of the when, why and so on that A855? became X855 matters not, the purpose was AFAIK exactly the same. My recollection is that TD was a big problem initially and having too many trains in the area could overwhelm the computer although it is something that I heard rather than anything that I know. A former new works colleague, a fellow wireman, earned his spurs at the east end as a young lineman before rising to become the District Line Signal Manager. He had many a tale of the problems he encountered in the early days of computer control of signalling.

The name of that lineman was it Steve A I won't put his full name?

[hellocontrol]

Dec 6, 2014 20:50:07 GMT railtechnician said:

Don't forget that going east there were regular reversers at Wood Green and Arnos Grove AFAIR which perhaps explains why all the X signals are on the Eastbound at the east end. Heathrow may have been the first Picc site with a computer but it was not the same as those at the east end as it did not control the signalling in the same way, appearing to the signalman as nothing more than three programme machines and little different to a more conventional site with real programme machines. That said, it was always a real PITA to load timetables into, I spent many hours there reloading timetables whenever I changed programme rolls at South Harrow, Ealing Broadway, Boston Manor, Northfields and Acton Town for special timetables.
As we always used to say on signals if there is one of something then it is a 'standard' and Heathrow was the only site of its particular kind!

Looking at it the reason for those X signals was like you have said to stop the computer becoming overloaded.

[hellocontrol]

Dec 7, 2014 11:53:53 GMT railtechnician said:

Dec 7, 2014 9:56:29 GMT drico said:

A Question for Railtechnian, the computers used for the sites at Wood Green, Arnos Grove, Oakwood and Cockfosters were said to be surplus kit which had been developed for use by the U.S. Military to launch rockets in the 1960 -1970's.

True! The actual phrase recounted to me was 'ex-missile firing computers from Vietnam', however, they were not the actual systems used in the war but surplus spares of the same type. These are the popular Hewlett Packard dual computer systems which when originally installed read their programming data from punched paper tape. In the 1990s they, including Heathrow, were given PC 'front ends' as programme loaders and output monitors which also drove printers. We were then able to load timetables from 3.5" floppy disks via the PCs which communicated with the HPs. The connecting network, X25, from Earls Ct main, standby and spare (able to be switched in to replace either main or standby computer) east end control HPs was also upgraded as were the LANs at each of the east end IMRs to give additional facilities and provide the local panels for all east end sites at Ash House east end operating centre. At the time all Picc linemen were trained to maintain the upgraded systems by the external Computer Contractor that designed and installed the upgrades, a rare event although by now most that were trained are probably no longer Picc lineman. If those systems are still in place as I believe I expect the newer linemen have had to teach themselves in the last decade or so as I had to do myself for programme machines, TD and other systems which were not taught on the 29 week T2S lineman course that I took. However, as I retired lineman training was already being modularised into several shorter maintenance courses and I expect that the Picc computer systems may have been taught as a module to some new entrants into the grade.

I had little to do with Met/Jub signalling computers although my recollection is that they were a later development of the same basic systems installed on the Picc. I seldom saw them online when I did Met/Jub signal maintenance Charing X - Stanmore as they were offline most of the night, my usual shift pattern, and AFAIK any programming was generally done remotely from Baker St SCC. I can only recall having to check a Met/Jub printout once during traffic hours on a signal failure when covering Wembley Park call depot on a 12 hour weekend late turn.

I remember seeing the ones at Baker Street wish I had taken a photo all ex US Military.