'Walking Pace'

[Nortube]

I can't remember if it was on my Guard's course in 1973 or Motorman's course in 1976, but on at least one of those we were taught "at a slow walking pace" and that was what was written on the hand-out. It does seem to have varied over time and I think in Motorman's days it sometimes depended on who was taking you for the train equipment class as to the phrase they used. Sometimes a mixture of terms were used at the same time to clarify what the speed should be and on at least one occasion I was taught "proceed at extreme caution, which is a slow walking pace, 3- 5 mph - a speed at which you would be able to count the sleepers.

Whatever description was used, they all gave an idea as to what the maximum speed you should be going when applying the rule.

Later, presumably to save time during signal failures where there were long gaps between signal, the instructions were "at a speed that you can stop short of any obstruction". This gave no indication of speed and, on a straight piece of track with a good sighting distance, this could effectively be normal speed, depending on the driver’s eyesight and most new drivers didn’t have a clue. To me this was just a "get out of jail" card, meaning that LU could do the driver irrespective of what speed the driver was doing.

Whilst the most common reason for an automatic signal remaining at danger is a train in front that can be easily seen if going at the correct speed for the sighting distance (e.g. slow round bends etc.) a train isn’t the only obstruction that can cause a signal to remain at danger. To quote one of the reasons we were taught for a signal remaining at danger – “a metal obstruction on the track”. This needn’t be anything bulky like a train. A shopping trolley is a good example, or even a flat piece of metal. Most obstructions won’t be seen until you’re right on top of them.

As far as I was concerned, in the hundreds of times I applied the rule for whatever reason, I always kept to the slow walking pace, even though SCAT, when later fitted, would let me go faster. A few times when I’ve had to apply the rule at NP14 at East Finchley NB when it has failed, I’ve crawled at this speed all the way to the next signal that I can resume normal speed (NQ280a), a distance of nearly a mile, I’ve had the Controller calling me up on the radio to ask me if I have any problems with the train

[Nortube]

I'm not sure if it was always the case that the Guard took the Motorman's key if he went walkies in the tunnel. I vaguely seem to recall being taught somewhere that the Guard could be in a place of safety and signal the driver forward with their handlamp.

It has not been unknown in the past for drivers, when asked by p-way or whoever, for their reverser key, to hand them a spare reverser key out of their bag! Generally, though, it was common for anybody, such as an AET or p-way,  wanting to get down on the track in tunnel sections to just hop out of the front cab door without bothering to ask for the key or even making sure the train was shut down.

[railtechnician]

Jul 26, 2013 9:36:37 GMT Nortube said:

I'm not sure if it was always the case that the Guard took the Motorman's key if he went walkies in the tunnel. I vaguely seem to recall being taught somewhere that the Guard could be in a place of safety and signal the driver forward with their handlamp.

It has not been unknown in the past for drivers, when asked by p-way or whoever, for their reverser key, to hand them a spare reverser key out of their bag! Generally, though, it was common for anybody, such as an AET or p-way,  wanting to get down on the track in tunnel sections to just hop out of the front cab door without bothering to ask for the key or even making sure the train was shut down.

When the rule was first created the guard had to walk ahead of the train, according to the contemporary report in The Engineer so he would not have been taking the Motorman's key, assuming that Northern line stock at the time required a selector/reverser key.

In all my years in Telephone, Radio and Signal lineman grades only once did a motorman ever offer me his selector/reverser key when attending failures in tunnels. It was a matter of trusting the motorman to hold the train while one went about one's work on the track.
The train was never shut down either! Of course shutting down the train and having to start it again would waste vital seconds from the minutes allowed to deal with the problem before having to leave it and go around again.
I believe policy these days is to live with failures in tunnels until the end of traffic unless failure to do so will escalate the problems e.g. a broken T/T wire which has a tendency to get caught up around train axles causing traction earth and blown track fuse faults. I can recall attending intermittent blockjoint failures for instance and the determination was to live with the resulting track failures and consequent signal failures rather than replace the blockjoint. Of course when that happened early in the morning, as happened in the T4 loop one Saturday, it would screw the service so bad that it was wrecked by end of traffic.
 

[Harsig]

Jul 27, 2013 13:43:36 GMT railtechnician said:

When the rule was first created the guard had to walk ahead of the train, according to the contemporary report
in The Engineer so he would not have been taking the Motorman's key, assuming that Northern line stock at
the time required a selector/reverser key.

By chance I've just been reading the report into a collision which occurred at Warwick Avenue in 1918 ( www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BoT_WarwickAvenue1918.pdf )and it quotes the relevant rule for passing automatic signals at danger as was then in force on the London Electric Railway (below). The last paragraph is the one relevant to this discussion.

RULB(73a) (AUTOMATIC STOP SIGNAL FAILURES).
(a) Should a Motorman find an Automatic Signal at Danger and he can see that the Line ahead is clear,
he must sound his call for the Conductor and wait at such signal one minute. If after the lapse of one minute
the signal still stands at Danger, he must close the Trip Isolating Cock at the front end of the train and proceed
past the signal under caution, having his train under complete control and being prepared to stop short of any obstacle.

The Conductor must ride on the front of the train to assist the Motorman in keeping a sharp look-out,
and the train must proceed under great caution until the next two Stop signals ahead (if showing " Clear ")
have been passsd, the Trip Isolating Cock being set at the Station ahead. The Conductor may then return
to his gangway, after which normal working may be resumed. If the signal or signals ahead of the defective
signals are at Danger, the same procedure as above described must be observed.

In cases where, owing to curvature of the Line, or Fog, or any other cause, the next signal ahead cannot
be seen, the Conductor must proceed on foot in advance of the train and the Motorman follow with the train
at a walking pace not nearer than a car's length to the Conductor and in response to his hand signals. The
train must stop to pick the Conductor up at the point where it can be seen the Line is clear ahead.

[Nortube]

It seems strange that the TCIC is cut out rather than just resetting the trip after being tripped as is the current practice. Although I suppose by having the Guard there that would act as an additional way of ensuring the driver kept their speed down. However, I think any Guard riding in the cab would be very wary of telling the driver to slow down or attempt to apply the emergency brake, especially if they were a relatively junior Guard. The driver was seen as God!

[Seven Kings Kid]

Could the reason for cutting out the TCIC be that the trains didn't have reset chords/ropes back then, (the trip arm itself being physically reset once activated), so to avoid delay in tunnels trying to reset the trip it was cut out instead with the view to resetting it at a more convenient and roomy location?

[Zippy]

Old thread I know but the phrase 'at a speed at which you can stop at any obstruction' is now trained after passing any signals at danger.

And in any event, passing any signal without authorisation is a no no. Of course, the rule book gives you the authorisation at an Auto signal in certain circumstances.

[railtechnician]

Aug 22, 2013 21:05:32 GMT Zippy said:

Old thread I know but the phrase 'at a speed at which you can stop at any obstruction' is now trained after passing any signals at danger.

And in any event, passing any signal without authorisation is a no no. Of course, the rule book gives you the authorisation at an Auto signal in certain circumstances.

In modern 'speak' under licensing I would expect the phrase to include "working within the limits of one's own authority" and of course exceeding that can be construed as gross misconduct. Whether expressed or implied that is the key phrase when contemplating almost any action oneself. The rule book in itself is surely not an authorisation these days as it was before the days of licensing. Training, experience, competence and licenses held being key factors in determining "the limits of one's own authority".