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Post by dave1 on Apr 30, 2013 18:24:50 GMT
Is it true that because the control room at Earls Court is going to be open longer than planned the signalling at the East end of the Picc converted to electronic programme machines and they are going to use a desk from Cobourg St so that the separate room can close and they will all be in the main control room? The system in use at the East end is really quite well cream crackered and this is the best way to keep everything going.
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Post by railtechnician on Apr 30, 2013 19:53:51 GMT
Is it true that because the control room at Earls Court is going to be open longer than planned the signalling at the East end of the Picc converted to electronic programme machines and they are going to use a desk from Cobourg St so that the separate room can close and they will all be in the main control room? The system in use at the East end is really quite well cream crackered and this is the best w ay to keep everything going.As for the east end signalling controls I am sure that they are better today than when originally commissioned in the early 1980s. I can't see how they are cream crackered although the Arnos Grove frame was always a bit of a pig mechanically. The existing control system is one of a few that can be ported almost anywhere with suitable comms links although it is updated 1960s technology and I can't see how electronic programme machines would be any better than the existing HP computers. The east end signalling was originally controlled from 'Metal Mickey' (otherwise known as Desk 5) in Earls Court control room before the controls were moved downstairs. I don't see why it couldn't be moved back there if needs be to free up the existing 'pokey' location. Perhaps things have changed somewhat since my last shift there back in 2004. I can't see how moving it to Cobourg St helps unless the rest of the Picc control staff go to Cobourg St as well.
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Post by Nortube on Apr 30, 2013 21:21:07 GMT
Electronic programme machines - the mighty programme machine is reduced to a USB stick in the IMR now. Doesn't seem quite the same any more.
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Post by dave1 on May 1, 2013 7:46:28 GMT
Is it true that because the control room at Earls Court is going to be open longer than planned the signalling at the East end of the Picc converted to electronic programme machines and they are going to use a desk from Cobourg St so that the separate room can close and they will all be in the main control room? The system in use at the East end is really quite well cream crackered and this is the best w ay to keep everything going.As for the east end signalling controls I am sure that they are better today than when originally commissioned in the early 1980s. I can't see how they are cream crackered although the Arnos Grove frame was always a bit of a pig mechanically. The existing control system is one of a few that can be ported almost anywhere with suitable comms links although it is updated 1960s technology and I can't see how electronic programme machines would be any better than the existing HP computers. The east end signalling was originally controlled from 'Metal Mickey' (otherwise known as Desk 5) in Earls Court control room before the controls were moved downstairs. I don't see why it couldn't be moved back there if needs be to free up the existing 'pokey' location. Perhaps things have changed somewhat since my last shift there back in 2004. I can't see how moving it to Cobourg St helps unless the rest of the Picc control staff go to Cobourg St as well. Looking at photos they do look better but what I was told operating wise they would prefer everyone in the same room and they had a desk there before. If you read my post you will see I wrote a desk from Cobourg St not at Cobourg St as there is a least one (vic line) available and further ones as the Northern line moves out.. The system at Baker St is controlled by ex Military equipment is the East end better?
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Post by dave1 on May 1, 2013 7:47:07 GMT
Electronic programme machines - the mighty programme machine is reduced to a USB stick in the IMR now. Doesn't seem quite the same any more. There is a photo on the web which shows something bigger than a USB stick.
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Post by railtechnician on May 1, 2013 7:48:31 GMT
Electronic programme machines - the mighty programme machine is reduced to a USB stick in the IMR now. Doesn't seem quite the same any more. There was something magical about the unique electropneumatic programme machine when working properly. I spent many shifts changing the programme rolls and changing out faulty machines on the Picc and District. I used to chuckle when a signalman put out a job on the Heathrow 'programme machines' as of course it never had any, it was an HP computer site. Somehow when properly maintained I found programme machines much more user friendly than HP computers with their modifications and PC front ends. I do hope the museum is preserving a few, they were an engineering marvel and somewhat unique like so much electromechanical kit. Surely there is a little more to an electronic P/Mc than a USB stick, presumably a PC to plug it into and various interfaces to lever frame, TD etc. Of course lever frames will become conspicuous by their absence, a retrograde step in my view but progress seems to dictate ladder logic and PLC will become the norm although it has to be a pain carting a laptop around when one needs to take local control.
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Post by Nortube on May 1, 2013 10:41:35 GMT
Sorry, I wasn't very clear. I think the USB stick currently in use in some locations is probably the equivalent of the programme machine roll (presumably containing the standard timetable for the week). It replaces the actual programme machine roll and mechanics (fingers, etc.) - i.e. the removable top of the programme machine - I don't know what the correct name for it is, but I'll call it the PM head I'm not sure how it works, but I assume that the box the USB stick plugs into contains the necessary CPU etc. and solid state outputs that interfaces with the bottom half of the PM, plugging into where the PM head used to plug into. and the output of the PM to wherever it goes to in the IMR is exactly the same as it would be if the normal PM head were in place. In the past, other locations have had all the PMs replaced by a computer that interfaces with the rest of the IMR and the PMs physically removed. I assume that the USB stick interface is a better (and cheaper?) arrangement that is easier to install. My understanding is that the LT museum will indeed have one or two programme machines. Hopefully as part of a fully working display. Yes, there was something magical about watching a PM in action, especially when there were several in a location. The roll stepping up, the fingers moving ever so slightly when they found a hole, trying to add the binary digits to get the train number and time etc. Then, of course, for each step up, the frame levers may move, the relays click as points threw and a signal cleared. A PC with a glowing screen just isn't the same somehow!
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Post by dave1 on May 1, 2013 18:20:25 GMT
They have the PMs from Walthamstow and they may have more.
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Post by railtechnician on May 1, 2013 23:20:41 GMT
Sorry, I wasn't very clear. I think the USB stick currently in use in some locations is probably the equivalent of the programme machine roll (presumably containing the standard timetable for the week). It replaces the actual programme machine roll and mechanics (fingers, etc.) - i.e. the removable top of the programme machine - I don't know what the correct name for it is, but I'll call it the PM head I'm not sure how it works, but I assume that the box the USB stick plugs into contains the necessary CPU etc. and solid state outputs that interfaces with the bottom half of the PM, plugging into where the PM head used to plug into. and the output of the PM to wherever it goes to in the IMR is exactly the same as it would be if the normal PM head were in place. In the past, other locations have had all the PMs replaced by a computer that interfaces with the rest of the IMR and the PMs physically removed. I assume that the USB stick interface is a better (and cheaper?) arrangement that is easier to install. My understanding is that the LT museum will indeed have one or two programme machines. Hopefully as part of a fully working display. Yes, there was something magical about watching a PM in action, especially when there were several in a location. The roll stepping up, the fingers moving ever so slightly when they found a hole, trying to add the binary digits to get the train number and time etc. Then, of course, for each step up, the frame levers may move, the relays click as points threw and a signal cleared. A PC with a glowing screen just isn't the same somehow! Still not clear I fear! Let me try and help you out, the P/Mc roll is mounted on a 'carrier', the 'carrier' slots into the P/Mc. The P/Mc was connected to the non-safety signalling wiring via its 'foot', the 'foot' being a multicore connector pushed up into the base of the P/Mc on an 'arm' which swivelled up and down and was secured by a single large knurled nut. What you are calling the P/Mc 'head' was in fact the P/Mc itself which was located on the 'stand' (or alternatively called the 'rack') so I think 'Electronic P/Mc' would be a proper description as I presume it to be a plug in replacement (via the 'foot') for the EP P/Mc. I'd love to see a picture of one, no doubt the leaky air lines have been isolated (no 'fingers' so no longer required) following P/Mc replacement but I expect the half minute clock impulse is still required. Most of the clock system was being upgraded to radio signal sync from two decades ago but the P/Mcs were still using the half minute impulse generated at Leicester Square master clock and fed to all lines via impulse repeaters to keep site clock circuits synchronised.
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Post by railtechnician on May 1, 2013 23:34:40 GMT
As for the east end signalling controls I am sure that they are better today than when originally commissioned in the early 1980s. I can't see how they are cream crackered although the Arnos Grove frame was always a bit of a pig mechanically. The existing control system is one of a few that can be ported almost anywhere with suitable comms links although it is updated 1960s technology and I can't see how electronic programme machines would be any better than the existing HP computers. The east end signalling was originally controlled from 'Metal Mickey' (otherwise known as Desk 5) in Earls Court control room before the controls were moved downstairs. I don't see why it couldn't be moved back there if needs be to free up the existing 'pokey' location. Perhaps things have changed somewhat since my last shift there back in 2004. I can't see how moving it to Cobourg St helps unless the rest of the Picc control staff go to Cobourg St as well. Looking at photos they do look better but what I was told operating wise they would prefer everyone in the same room and they had a desk there before. If you read my post you will see I wrote a desk from Cobourg St not at Cobourg St as there is a least one (vic line) available and further ones as the Northern line moves out.. The system at Baker St is controlled by ex Military equipment is the East end better? Sorry, I misread your post regarding Cobourg St! The old desk 5 was still in situ in the control room which had the East end PCs on it before they were moved downstairs so I don't know why a desk from Cobourg St is needed unless things have changed in the last nine years. AFAIK the east end of the Picc, Heathrow T123, Met/Jub sites, Earls Ct CR and Baker St SCC all used pretty much the same HP computers, reputed to be ex-missile firing computers (or at least designed as such) during the Vietnam war. They were/are much of a muchness and while I worked on those on the Picc I had little to do with those on my maintenance patch at Stanmore, Baker Street, Neasden, Willesden Green, Charing Cross, Finchley Road and Wembley Pk so I cannot say whether they were any better although I always understood them to be later versions.
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Post by Nortube on May 2, 2013 9:22:44 GMT
In that case, it would be the whole PM (complete with motor, and quite heavy) that the USB stick replaces. I think there are some photos around on the internet, I'll see if I can find one to link to later on.
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Post by dave1 on May 2, 2013 9:32:10 GMT
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Post by GentlemanJim on May 3, 2013 12:32:28 GMT
Slightly off topic but can anyone explain why the SSR is only partially Command and Control. The District being the perfect example with Barking and Upminster retaining there Cabins with Farringdon and Aldgate Cabins closing only in the past decade or so.
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Post by railtechnician on May 3, 2013 13:47:20 GMT
In that case, it would be the whole PM (complete with motor, and quite heavy) that the USB stick replaces. I think there are some photos around on the internet, I'll see if I can find one to link to later on. Yep now I've seen the image I get it, it is literally a replacement P/Mc. That will save my former colleagues a lot of work changing rolls! It could be a nightmare, changing rolls was basically a one man job on night shift for an Acton man. I'd have to load the timetables from floppy disk into the PCs/HPs at Heathrow T123 then rush off to South Harrow and change three rolls, then two more at Boston Manor and seven at Northfields, next it was Ealing Broadway for the three Ealing P/Mcs and the two Hanger Lane P/Mcs and finally back to Acton East IMR to change eleven rolls. On a good night no problem but sometimes the HPs at T123 wouldn't take the timetable and if the service had been screwed before the change, the rolls being replaced would have to be hand wound to the beginning and it took time even with a good technique! The removal of EP P/Mcs is the end of an era!
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drico
Station Inspector
Thank you driver, off clips.
Posts: 202
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Post by drico on May 4, 2013 12:50:46 GMT
Slightly off topic but can anyone explain why the SSR is only partially Command and Control. The District being the perfect example with Barking and Upminster retaining there Cabins with Farringdon and Aldgate Cabins closing only in the past decade or so. Whitechapel still has a signal cabin. The reson these cabins are still open is the lack of money and time it takes to replace them with up to date replacements. As for Command and Control on the SSR it does not exist.
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